Ask Elisa Podcast

PODCAST EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

It’s Ask Elisa, a podcast about dating and relationships. I’m your host, Elisa Sparkman. If you like the show, please sign up for the monthly newsletter at askElisapodcast.com. And follow me on social media @askelisapodcast

Today’s episode is a Q&A with a therapist. And my guest is Kate Mageau, a therapist in the Seattle area. Hi, Kate.

Hi, Elisa. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, you’re welcome.

It’s a pleasure. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. So I will say I became a therapist because I went through an abusive relationship.

And that’s what made me become a therapist and then really focus on working with people coming out of relationships. And then people dating and people finding themselves. And, yeah, I guess that’s a little bit about me professionally.

And I have books on the topics, too. Great. Thank you.

And we’ll put links to Kate’s stuff on my resources and shout out pages on my Web site. And is there something about you, just like a fun fact, some fun facts about you? What do you like to do with your time? Yeah, I love to crochet. I made this sweater I’m wearing, actually.

So that’s, yeah, a really big hobby I’m obsessed with besides reading. I just finished my 80th book I’ve read for this year. So, yeah, I love reading.

It’s it’s for real. And I’m now dabbling in that. Well, not dabbling.

I’m actually writing my first fiction book. I’m working on that now. It’s been really fun.

That’s so cool. Wow. You read 80 books so far this year.

Yeah. Like as of 2026 started. Do you have like a record for how many you’ve read in a year? Well, I only started keeping track in 2023.

But I think that year it was like 125, something like that. Wow. Maybe that was the somewhere around that.

It was either that year or the following year. Yeah, I do a mix of audio books and like on my Kindle and physical books. So, yeah, I’m just always reading.

It can’t walk by bookstore without buying a book. Yeah, I only do audio books. I have a hard time reading physical books.

I physically my eyes get tired and my body gets tired. And I just fall asleep no matter what. Unless I’m unless I’m on vacation.

Sometimes I can like relax enough that I can actually focus on reading a book. But usually if it’s like during the year, if I’m just like reading before bed, I’ll fall asleep. So I do I do audio books while I’m like cooking and cleaning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s how I do it, too. But I will say I really like thrillers.

And so if I’m reading a thriller, I want to know what happens. And so I love to have that as my physical book. And also that music that is not in English in the background is helpful.

Oh, cool. Yeah. So can you share you specialize in therapy around relationships and toxic relationships? And what else do you do in your therapy? Yes.

So also, I’m ADHD. So you’ll probably see that in the way I answer questions and my mind will go on tension sometimes. But, yeah.

So I also work with ADHD and autistic people and I do ADHD and autism assessment. I’m lesbian. I work with queer people.

I do gender affirming letters and I do emotional support animal letters. So, yeah. So my main things are helping working with people who are queer, neurodivergent and or coming out of a toxic relationship or starting to date and their next find their next relationship.

That’s that’s great. Thanks for sharing that. I think I’m going to be doing the ADHD autism assessment with my therapist soon.

Great. Yeah, it’s really nice to know. That’s I was like, what is I feel pretty competent in and comfortable with who I am.

And I was kind of like, what’s the benefit of knowing instead of me just saying, yeah, I’m likely neurodivergent. I got it. And then she’s like, that depends on the person.

The benefit is for the however the person might find it. But I figure why not? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, too, like it’s it’s helpful to know if it’s ADHD, if it’s autism, if it’s ADHD, because then when you’re looking at stuff online, you’re watching like all the different videos on it or you’re reading about it. Like you can get the information that is tailored towards your brain. And like, especially like I do so many of these assessments and in my like my small sample size of my one practice myself, most people are ADHD more than they are just ADHD or just autistic.

And so it’s really helpful for people to know that because that is like a unique neurotype on its own. So ADHD is autism. And ADHD.

And ADHD together. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was like, I suddenly feel like I have ADHD. This is crazy.

And I’m like, nobody would have ever thought this about me before. And my therapist is like, maybe you’re just like can’t mask anymore. And like looking back at my childhood, she’s like, yeah, as we talked and talked over the past year, she’s like, I don’t know about it just suddenly appearing.

I’m like, I swear, I was never like this before. Okay, well, yeah. I mean, so I will say on that, like, for a diagnosis to be valid, it’s like it’s throughout life, but it’s so easily it’s, we’re taught to mask, we’re taught, especially people who are born female, we’re taught to, like, be polite in society.

And so it really gets hard to, to see all of it looking back. And then also, there’s so much more information about it now than what we used to have, like, just in society that no one was getting diagnosed. And then to add on top of for people born female, perimenopause acts on the exact same neurotransmitters that ADHD does.

So all those symptoms start becoming worse and perimenopause can actually start in your 30s. So, yeah. Yeah, that’s what I, I also had, you know, very traumatic loss when my best friend suddenly passed away last summer.

So I had really intense grief brain. And so I was saying, like, I thought the grief changed my brain and made, you know, like messed with me because I had the grief brain. And it was like, all of a sudden, the grief fog was lifting.

And I, I can’t track things the way I used to, I can’t organize things the way I used to. And so I was like, is it the grief thing? Is it perimenopause? Is it who knows? And I guess it doesn’t really matter. It’s here.

Yeah. And yeah, an actual assessment will help you to, like, I don’t know, feel validated in that, like, oh, yeah, this is ADHD. With all the rest of it, that’s making things a little bit more difficult.

And then you’ll have more methods for making things easier. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that’s helpful.

I think I’m going to do it. I just have to, like, say, OK, we’re going to do it. You know, I was having weekly sessions and now we move to every other week.

So now I’m kind of like, oh, maybe I maybe we should just schedule a couple of weeks in a row to do that. And so I don’t have to feel like I’m using my therapy session to do the assessment. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So you can still have your therapy time.

So I’m really excited with the questions I have for you today. They’re all around dating and like kind of the beginning stages of of a relationship. So the first one I have a lot of thoughts on, but I’m curious to hear from you.

Are there any common pieces of modern dating or relationship advice that you just disagree with or hate? OK, people are not going to like this response, but. I think we need to have less importance around attachment styles. I think it has become way too big of a deal that people are talking about.

This is my attachment style and I’m going to always have it. And that’s not true. The attachment style that a person has within a relationship is going to look different in their next relationship.

It is a it’s somewhat from the individual person, but it’s also the dynamic that’s happening within that relationship. So when we’re talking, coming into a new relationship and like, well, what’s your attachment style? What was it like in the last relationship? Fine. Discuss it.

But like discuss the dynamics around it, too. It just it doesn’t exist in a vacuum and I feel like people talk about it like it exists in a vacuum. That’s that life.

I haven’t talked much about attachment styles on the podcast. I’m not super well versed on attachment styles. If you were to give like a five minute summary, could you give us a quick summary of attachment styles? Yeah.

So there’s anxious attachment is like when a person feels they’re worried about if that person likes them. They’re they’re wanting to it might be a little bit more towards codependency or more needy towards wanting that. And then you have an avoidant attachment style is where a person is like, oh, I’m not going to try and get like I’m not going to give as much time and space or I will avoid like a complicated discussion.

And then you have secure attachment style as someone who’s like, I can be secure in myself. The way that they frame attachment styles is if you put these two people together, then that’s not going to work. Anxious and avoidant.

However, it’s more nuanced than that. Like if a person is legitimately not participating in conversations around the relationship, they’re not like wanting to make plans for the future or whatever. They’re like or, hey, there’s a problem in the relationship.

We need to discuss it. And it’s not like, oh, they’re just being avoidant and the other person is being anxious because they need it. It’s that person’s not trying in the relationship.

They’re not communicating. Or if one person is like, oh, I’m anxious because I want to text them all the time. It’s like, OK, maybe there’s a thing about the frequency.

But are you also like feeling anxious about how they like what’s happening with your partner because they’re not actually communicating with you? You know, so it’s just it’s so complicated. And I think that there’s we can talk about it in therapy or in like relationship coaching. But the way that I see it used in dating, I feel like does not give nuance to the entire picture.

And I think it does a disservice. Thanks. I, I agree with that.

I kind of have stayed away from diving into attachment styles because I feel like it’s become too buzz wordy and people are applying it to like that’s how they are and they can’t help it. So in my understanding, anxious is like you are worried about the relationship holding up like you’re anxious because of your abandonment issues. You’re anxious.

Yeah. It’s going to end you. And then avoidant is more like you’re worried you’re worried you’re going to get hurt.

It’s like you want to avoid you want to avoid the confrontation. You want to avoid the pain. And you might even avoid relationships altogether because you don’t want to even like you might get into a relationship and then just like, oh, shit, I can’t do this.

And like, drop the ball for two days and not text the person, even though you’re really interested and want to be with them, but you just like had this avoidant crash out and couldn’t really respond right away. Or, you know, when it had nothing to do with the person. Yeah.

And then secure. It’s like, oh, you’re all good. But like I. So I finished the book, the new book by Marissa Franco called Worth.

And she kind of read it. She kind of I think along the lines, she talks a lot about attachment styles, but at that they’re not that they’re not set in stone and that like even secure people will have anxious times. They’ll be avoiding at times and that like you can be and that secure does not mean an emotional or, you know, and it doesn’t mean that you can handle everything.

It’s so she kind of calls it like your goal should be like secure ish. And she talks about that. And I really there’s so much nuance to human beings and relationships.

And I think that that’s why relationship advice and dating advice can be a difficult space to navigate. I really try to not have my advice be super directive or reflective. So it’s not telling you what to do.

It’s giving you some things to think about so that you can make your own decision. That’s kind of how I hope to frame my dating advice and maybe get, you know, share some tools and things that people can use to. But then, you know, you here’s a tool, but you get to kind of design your tool to your to how you want to use it and how it will work for you.

Yeah, I mean having listened to a bunch of your podcast episodes, I think you are doing a really good job at that. I’m making it exactly that way. And and yeah, and also I just want to add to the just like real briefly to finish the attachment style conversation.

But sometimes the avoidance can actually be abuse. And sometimes it can actually be like an autistic burnout meltdown. Like, you know, there’s so much nuance and we need to know what else is happening in this scenario.

Okay, yeah. So if, like I said, avoidant person just kind of has their own crash out. But then there could also be avoidant used, like using the avoidance manipulatively.

Yeah. What, what dating advice I really hate is the dating advice that discourages communication. Like the, if they don’t, you know, if you don’t hear from them for a certain amount of time, block them.

No, if you don’t hear from a certain amount of time, maybe reach out like it’s, you know, it’s okay. You’re not gonna, it’s not gonna hurt you or kill you to just be the bigger person and reach out or just get your closure, get your answer. It’s not a big deal.

You’re not like, there’s no winning. Like, you know, it’s almost like they turn that into a game when you, when it’s like, if you don’t hear from them, block them. If you don’t, you know, if they are not communicating the way you want them to communicate, they can’t read your mind.

You need to share with them what you’re, what you want. And, um, I, I think that a lot of times it’s around the early stages of dating and texting where people are like, you know, if they’re not texting, like I said, within a certain amount of time, or if they’re not sending you good morning texts, or if they’re not sending you, um, whatever. Or texting you all day.

Like people have different texting styles. People have different connection, like ways they connect. And I am so tired of this, like, block them.

And I think that it’s okay. So when, when I give advice over threads, when people are like, it’s usually, it’s usually a woman that can, like, posting about a man who hasn’t responded in a certain amount of time, or he said this, what does it mean? And my comment is always, you have a voice and you can use it. Ask him, reach out, like, get your clarification.

Like, there’s nothing, there’s nothing wrong with that. You don’t have to sit there and try and guess what they mean. Ask them what they mean.

Absolutely. Why, why are we guessing and why are we making decisions for people based on not hearing from them for long enough? And also, okay, on that topic? Well, also, like, for example, one time I was texting with this woman, and we’re like, talking about meeting, and I didn’t hear from her for a little bit. And I was like, Oh, okay.

And then she was like, Oh, I was really sick. And I was like, Oh, okay. You know, like, great.

That’s okay. I mean, not great. She was sick, but Right.

It’s, I didn’t block her. I was just like, Oh, weird. I’ll just see what happens.

Yeah, you can also do that. Just see what happens. Maybe, maybe they’ll reach out and say, I think, like several years ago, when I was a match with somebody is back in 2016.

After my divorce, and that person would, would disappear for a few days, and then be like, Oh, I went camping. And then he would have like new pictures up of like being in the mountains. And like, Oh, he really likes to just disappear on the, on the weekends or his weekends and stuff.

And we’re not close enough at this point where he needs to tell me where he’s going and what he’s doing. So, you know, like, people can. Yeah.

Yeah. Mm hmm. Well, Yeah.

Um, and I think people can have immediate attraction. And then also when people are demisexual, then that’s, you know, another label used for people are just like, it takes time to build up. But yeah, have nuance and people can have some time in it.

Also, okay, to add to this point about people always texting, there needs to be breaks. There cannot be texting all day long, because that is literally how codependency gets started. And it’s love bombing through emotional and maybe not intentional.

It might be both people like really doing it, but it’s, that’s where a, that kind of behavior can make room for abuse. And so it’s really important when you’re texting with somebody and spending time with them, that you have at least some time to yourself to reflect, because when we’re really excited about someone, our brain gives us oxytocin. And it gives us that feeling of like, love and connection, and then the dopamine and the joy.

And so then it’s like the brain’s being flooded with it constantly and constantly and constantly. And doesn’t have a chance to pause and reflect and go, wait, what else do I know about this person? Is this actually a good person that I want to be with? Yeah, constant texting is not a good idea. Yeah, I, I definitely got into some constant texting with matches over, over dating apps, especially in the when I first started dating after being in a relationship, because I was so used to constant communication with my former partner, you know, and so when you become single, you miss that, like, oh, my gosh, I just saw the cutest dog text, like, that kind of stuff.

And so I, I tried to, you know, let my friends know what I was going through and just text them instead. Yes. But it was so fun.

It feels so good to connect with somebody and want to chat with them all day. But I, I suggest in my dating guidance and advice that you pick about, you know, two hours in the day where you can have a text conversation. But other than that, just a few messages here and there.

And just refrain from all day, all day texting. It just, like you said, you don’t have the time to stop and reflect on what the person is really like, what other information you have. And you also just start to kind of like fill in the gaps and build this idea of this person.

And it just leads you to get disappointed or like to go into a relationship without the right information and things could end up, you know, at the worst, you end up bummed out. I mean, at the best, you end up bummed out and disappointed. Or, you know, I guess the very best is that it was fine and your instant connection worked out and your, you know, things turned out to be healthy.

But I’m just saying most of the time, when we’re dating, the majority of connections do not work out. Yeah. Yeah.

Because that’s what dating is. Yep. Absolutely.

And then also when you’re doing that constant texting and constant communication of phone call or constant dates or whatever, where, like, did you have time to go to the grocery store? Like, did you have time to like, listen to your audio book? Like, what things do you need to do for your life that you’re neglecting? Like, continue to see your friends and family, continue to do the hobbies that bring you joy and peace. Like, don’t lose yourself in the process. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that that’s kind of what makes it hard is because you can be texting somebody at the grocery store. And when you’re hanging out with your friends and family and stuff, you might not be fully present and people notice that you’re on your phone.

And I’m, I’m guilty of that for sure. So, yeah, I think that the, the dating advice around, around texting. So we are discouraging communication.

So I always put it as like discouraging communication is the kind of dating advice that I don’t like. And I guess we’re not discouraging it. We’re saying limit it, watch it, be mindful.

Like, regulate it in the sense of like emotional regulation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Keep your own emotional regulation as you’re talking with this person. Like, regulate the text so you can stay emotionally regulated. Yeah, it goes hand in hand.

Yeah, maybe regulate is not the best word. Yeah, but I’m not discouraging it either. No.

Be mindful of it. And I know there’s times where what I would do is I’d match with somebody and maybe I’d be working from home and having a kind of a day where I’m having trouble focusing on work. So I’m welcoming the conversation.

So we’re chatting a bunch for that day. And I would say like, it’s been really nice chatting with you. I had a day where I couldn’t really focus.

So I was happy to have the conversation. And then I would say like, I got a busy day tomorrow so that they don’t expect that I’m always going to do that. And I don’t normally text like much during the work day, just to kind of reset those expectations.

And I think it’s okay to say, if you’re somebody who really values that kind of like texting, you can let them know like, Hey, I really, I really appreciate getting texts throughout the day. I don’t need them all day long, but I appreciate it. Especially if you’re to the point where you’re like, starting to date regularly with the person like talk about your texting styles and what you expect and what you like.

And maybe they’ll say, I really don’t text at all during the day. I just don’t. And then you could be like, well, what about on your breaks? Like, you know, you can say, I’d really appreciate like a, Hey, what’s up? I hope you’re having a good day during your break.

You know, maybe we don’t need to engage in a lot of texting and, you know, maybe come to a compromise or, you know, you kind of learn how the other person works and see if you can find a rhythm of texting that works for you. Yeah. I think that’s really smart.

It’s a different world to navigate now with this constant access. And then people are like, okay, well, they didn’t text me all day, but I saw that they posted this on their Instagram stories and then they start to spin out. So we have like all of these ways of keeping track of each other.

And that’s, you know, It’s too much. It’s really too much. And if we’re just starting to date someone, we don’t have to be watching their Instagram stories also.

Like, I think it’s okay if someone posts on their stories and texts you back later. Yeah. When the early stages of dating, you don’t want to, you don’t, you want the other person to have a life and be living it.

They are entitled to live their life and do what they want. They don’t owe you their full attention. They just met you.

They don’t know you. Just like you don’t owe them your full attention. You just met them.

You don’t know them. Yes. And it’s healthy to not be giving someone or expecting someone full attention.

Yeah. Yeah. So what I would say is, you know, people are so worried.

There’s also this dating advice. I don’t know if you’ve heard it. If he wanted to, he would.

I don’t know. I don’t think so. Yeah.

So like, it’s basically saying like, if the man, and a lot of this is very heteronormative advice, if he wanted to, he would, is something that people say when, in a broad sense, it makes it, I think it applies. Like, if somebody is interested in you and wants to have, wants to get to know you, they will make the effort to, in most cases. You want to date somebody.

You want to be interested in somebody who’s also, you know, putting in the effort and showing the interest. And so what I think happens with, if he wanted to, he would, is in early stages of dating, when you don’t really know each other and you’re getting to, you meet somebody, you match with them, when you’ve gone on one date, your expectations are not telepathically communicated to that person. Like, you can’t, just because they’re not behaving the exact way that you want them to, it doesn’t mean that they automatically are not interested.

And if they wanted to, they would. It might mean that they are not somebody who shows up that way. Maybe they have no idea.

Like, especially if you’re using it in terms, which nowadays is so often, is in that texting conversation where I saw a post on threads where somebody said, ladies, if he doesn’t respond to your good morning text message in two hours, what do you do? And everyone’s like, block him, block him. And I’m like, two hours? You know, and then a lot of them is like, if he wanted to, he would. Like, he’s got his phone all the time.

We all have our phones all the time. And it’s like. No, that it’s just, that’s so over the top.

And so I feel like that if he wanted to, he would, like I said, in a broad sense is fine, but it gets used to, to just like shut people out for not behaving the exact way that you want them to. And instead of reaching out, instead of communicating, instead of being curious and getting to know someone. So I’m not a fan.

I posted a TikTok video saying that I wasn’t a fan of this dating advice. And I got a lot of people being like, you, this is just gonna, this is just telling women that they should settle or, you know, not, not want to manage those effort. I’m like, no, I’m saying that it’s, it’s not helpful advice.

It’s too, it’s too black and white. The world is too nuanced and people show up in different ways. People’s brains work differently.

And so some people’s argument was like, well, you need to, you should match with somebody who shows, shows you love the way you want it to be shown. I’m like. Like, or you could talk about it and talk about the ways that you want to communicate.

Like we were talking about earlier, the ways you want to share love or talk about, like, I have a friend who like in her first year with her, her partner who now they’ve been together a few years, like they’re good, but they like, they chose a schedule. They’re like, okay, so Saturdays and Tuesdays are good days for us for dates. Like, that’s what we’re going to do that works for us.

Like, and they decided how much they’re going to text and yeah, I think just communicate. There’s so much encouragement to just like make assumptions and, and things based on those assumptions where, you know, we should be adults and be able to have conversations, but there’s, yeah, it’s so frustrating to me. Some of the dating advice out there really bothers me that it shuts down communication and, and then it gets, it gets kind of covered up with this like empowerment guys, like you’re taking control by, you know, by blocking them or by, you know, when there are times where I think, yes, maybe you should block them and you don’t owe them an explanation and you don’t need to reach out.

Like if somebody is, is rude or makes you feel unsafe, doesn’t respect boundaries or yeah, there’s plenty of times where you should cut off communication. But just because they didn’t text you back when you wanted them to, in my opinion, is not helpful. Yeah.

And you can be missing out on some really good people. Yeah. Agreed.

All right. Next question is what are some signs that you should take a break from dating? Okay. If you want to.

Okay. I think, um, but no. Okay.

Yeah. I like, I thought about these questions when you sent them to me the other day and, um, I, yeah, I wrote a little note if you want to, like, that is, that is the answer. Obviously I want to stay on that, but listen to your intuition, listen to how you’re feeling.

Um, and also if you’re not spending enough time with your friends and family, like the way the amount that you want to, whatever enough means to you, if you’re not spending enough time doing the things that you want to do your hobbies, reading 80 books or whatever it may be. You know, if you’re not living your life, then take a break or, or do less of it. Right.

Um, but, but really I do mean like, listen to your intuition, your intuition is going to tell you if you’re ready, if you’re not ready. Um, I personally was out of a, um, I had a long relationship and, and I’ve been like taking some time and like had a lunch date with someone. Well, actually it wasn’t a date, but I had a nice lunch with someone and I was like, oh, I, I enjoy meeting new people.

I might be ready. Like I’m feeling it in my body that might be ready. Um, listen to how you feel.

I think that is always something that people should be doing, listening to how you feel as you’re dating and deciding when to date and when not to date. Yeah, I think that’s great advice. I, I think that it’s really good practice to, to ask yourself some questions like, am I looking forward to meeting people? Am I looking forward to, um, like if you have a match on your dating app and you’ve been talking like, am I, is this, am I looking forward to meeting this person? Do I want to meet this person? If your answer, am I excited? Yeah.

If your answer is like, eh, no, not really. No, no. Then maybe you need a break or maybe you’re like, that’s fine.

I just will. That means I’m not going to meet this person and just say no to 30 people before you decide to go on a date with somebody. Like, it’s totally fine.

I think another assumption that people make when they are using dating apps is that they just, they have to like go hard. They have to be making matches and they have to be going on dates, but like playing the numbers game, like they have to put everything into it, but you don’t have to, you can, you can say no to 50 people or say no for a whole year to every single person until you finally see somebody when you’re like, oh, I actually want to meet this person. Then just go out with that person.

If you, if your gut is like, eh, no, no, it’s okay to pass on people. Like if you don’t feel excited about meeting someone, don’t go. It’s fine.

Right. And hopefully there’s some sort of like, you want to have a connection with them too, right? Like I think sometimes I’ve had experiences myself. I’m going through the apps and I’m like, well, this person’s really pretty.

And then I’m like, what, what do I want to ask them about? What, what might we connect on? And I like, if I don’t find anything that I’m like, okay, they can just be a pretty person that I matched with. Yeah, that’s it. Like find the connection for the excitement.

If it’s not there, then it’s not there. Of course. I think sometimes people get exhausted with the first dates and those questions, like kind of those getting to know you questions.

If you do not want to have that small talk anymore, if you’re tired of that small talk, go ahead and take a break. I think that’s it. Like if you are dreading first dates, take a break for a little while.

Even if you only want to take a break for two weeks, like a break doesn’t have to be very long. Like you can take a week break where you just don’t look at your app for a week. I think that some of the apps have, you have the ability to pause the app.

Yeah. Sometimes you have to pay for it though, depending on the app. Well, I mean, you can just let the likes accumulate for a week if you want.

Or you can delete it over and create a new profile. Creating a new profile can be nice for a refresh. Yeah, that’s a nice idea.

Just make a whole new one. Connect it to a different email address, I guess. If you delete your profile and delete your app, you can use the same email address again.

Oh, cool. You delete your whole account. Yeah, that makes sense.

All right. That’s good to know that people can do that. Yeah.

But yeah, if you’re dreading going on a date, why are you going? But I also want to add with if people are not wanting so much of the small talk, I really think an activity date is really fun and also can help you see how the person handles competition, especially if it’s something you’re good at. And you want to see will they get upset if I start winning, right? So go to ski ball or pool or pinball or whatever little casual gaming type thing and see how they react. And also, you don’t have to have as much small talk the whole time.

Yeah. Or you can make it like a coffee, ice cream, date type thing where it can be very short if you want it to. You can just be like, chug your coffee and be like, great, thank you.

Right, not a whole dinner or a whole meal where you’re like, oh, crap, now I’m sitting here. And a follow up to that, is there any kind of inner work that you would recommend while someone takes a break from dating? Well, as a therapist, I’m going to recommend therapy. Therapy or coaching.

Coaching is great, too. But I think that there needs to be reflection. However, a person wants to reflect and, you know, not everyone loves therapy or coaching and that’s fine.

Some people are more like internal processors where they process just things inside their head. As long as there’s reflection on what happened and some self-awareness, I think that’s the kind of inner work that needs to be done. However, each person wants to do it.

And journaling is really helpful. Maybe making a podcast. Maybe it’s writing a book, which I did.

It can be whatever works for you, but I think find a way to reflect on what happened and what you might change and, you know, yeah. Alright, so now we’re going into some of the questions that I really want to talk to you about. So, what issues do people with past toxic relationships face when they’re starting to date? Yeah, so the biggest thing is self-esteem and self-compassion and confidence and finding, like relearning who a person is.

Because what happens in a toxic relationship is that one of the first things to go is self-esteem. Like, it’s normally it’s emotional abuse is present in a toxic relationship. And then even when there’s other forms of abuse, the emotional abuse is always there.

And that abuse is what leads a person to question themselves, like in gaslighting, right? Like, oh, did I really say that or what really happened? So a person has to relearn how to trust themselves again. And then also the abuse can be in like things that make the person feel bad about themselves. Like saying a person’s not good at certain things.

So then you can go and like do those things and, you know, get a little bit of external validation from your family and friends. And then that internal validation will start to come. I can be like, oh, I don’t know who I am anymore.

Because in codependency, the person ends up doing all the same stuff as the ex-partner. And so you like lose out on your own hobbies. And so you can look at like what hobbies did you enjoy as a child or as a teenager that you like completely forgot about? Like, oh, I used to draw.

Weird. I totally forgot I used to draw. Okay, let me do that again.

Yeah, these are the issues. And I think rebuilding self-esteem through finding what you enjoy, understanding the toxic patterns that happened. And that’s why I made the book and the workbook that I did and why I do the work that I do is to help people to understand really what happened.

Because it feels so confusing. And it can be really easy to be like, well, that was really bad. And I don’t want to think about it anymore.

But then you don’t have that reflection if you don’t think about it again. And then you might miss it when those signs come in the next relationship. So that’s a really important aspect.

And then self-talk. Like, I think how a person talks to themselves is huge. And it really, really gets interrupted in a toxic relationship because so much of what the partner has said will enter a person’s brain.

And a person will often actually be talking to themselves in the voice of that partner. And so they actually forget their own voice. So learning to listen to whose voice is really speaking in my brain and what voice do I want to be using with myself.

Talking to yourself the same way that you do to your best friends. Or also I think the way you talk to pets can also make it feel more silly. But it’s quite loving.

So that’s what we want to highlight. Yeah, I could go on and on on that. Okay.

The episodes with my guest Chris. She was in a relationship with somebody who she found out had been lying to her the whole time. And she felt, as we look back on it.

So these are episodes 14 is like her introduction. And then episodes 18 and 19 are her story about that relationship. And she talks about how she was gaslit.

And she was kind of made to be the public girlfriend of this guy. So he could have his facade relationship while he went and did whatever the heck he wanted. And she talks about how ashamed she was for letting it go on longer than it was.

Like she knew about the betrayal and everything and she still, you know, she went back to him a few times. Or, you know, didn’t really want to believe the full scale of the betrayal. And she was kind of groomed to become his like facade partner.

I made up this. Get what I’m saying? Like by facade partner. So basically, to have this public image and be like a great, you know, a performatively great boyfriend.

So that no one would question the other stuff that he could keep secret. I found it interesting. And this is in one of the episodes where she’s like, but I don’t know if he actually ever physically cheated on me.

I found evidence of like all these conversations with women on his phone. And I was like, wait a minute. No, you found this, this and that.

And he was like, he went to this other state to be with this woman. And she’s just like, oh, yeah. It’s almost like she blocked it out.

But as she moved on and started dating again, she dated somebody and had a really nice time with them. And then at one point, he said he used the R word. And she was like, oh, I don’t like that.

Like, I really am not comfortable. I don’t like that language. I don’t like, please don’t say that around me.

Yeah, yeah. It’s not okay. And he didn’t care.

And she ended it because of that. And I like I wanted to tell her how and I did like she’s like, oh, like I have now I have all this. I need to learn from everything I went through.

I’m like, that’s evidence that you did learn from it. Look at you. Like, look at that.

That’s not a small thing that you did there because you were really enjoying the connection with this person. You were having a lot of fun with them and it wasn’t anything serious. Like they both knew it wasn’t anything serious.

They weren’t planning on, you know, like going and meeting each other’s parents or anything. They were really just like going to baseball games together and concerts together and didn’t have this like long term intention. So, you know, I think old Chris probably would have let that slide.

Chris really did it made it made a really big choice by at that very first red flag of that person. So it’s not even that, you know, the red flag was him not even not so much that he used the word even. But the fact that he didn’t care showed this lack of consideration.

Right. Like if he said, oh, my bad. I’m sorry.

Like all these people that I they were around say it all the time. I didn’t realize I’m going to try better or like I’m not going to say it anymore. But, you know, that’s that’s the response you want when you tell somebody something hurts you.

Yeah. If they say they don’t care, you know, and I say in some of my dating advice, if somebody says something that makes you really uncomfortable or something rude or something off putting there and it’s they’re showing up in the very beginning like this. It’s not going away.

Right, right. Absolutely. And if they’re not showing that they care about how their actions make you feel, then they’re going to continue doing it.

And sometimes people will actually like if they’re trying to be manipulative, will do something on purpose that might create a reaction that you don’t like just to see if you’ll go along with it. And that’s when they’re trying to see, like, how much can I control this person? Right. So, yeah, absolutely.

That she was able to, like, figure that out immediately and say no. And also like the the shame that goes with being in a relationship like that, which obviously each person’s relationship is unique, but those basically her story is the building blocks of any relationship story. There’s a lot of toxic relationship story.

The shame is normal and that’s the part that takes the longest to heal. That’s why we work on our emotional self-esteem afterward so we can have the strength to not put up with people who don’t care about their words. And, you know, people are like, why did I stay so long? Why did I put up with that? Why did I, you know, like I. No, that’s normal.

You get stuck in that cycle. It’s normal because it’s it is part of the cycle. There’s a whole cycle of violence that can include emotional violence.

It’s there’s a whole. It’s the person that once once a person figures out that they can control someone, if they if that’s their intention, that’s what they’re going to do. And they will keep a person in using all the same tactics they got you to stay in.

And so. It’s it’s nothing to be ashamed of. It’s it’s just that that person was not a good person.

We’re not responsible for other people’s behaviors. Right. Right.

Yeah. And in the episode, the Dating 101 episode about chatting on dating apps, I think I call it typical chatting on dating apps. I talk about this test and apologize that people will do.

And that’s test. That’s kind of like what you said, like put something out there to see if they can control you to check your reaction. And, you know, maybe the goal in test and apologize is to, like, pull back a little bit where, you know, the goal might not be to control, but it is to see what they can get away with.

And it’s not used in good faith. So when and in this case, I used the kind of sexual talk where somebody might say something sexually inappropriate in an early dating. And and if you if you say, oh, that’s not you know, I don’t I don’t want to talk like that or whatever, they’ll be like, oh, I was just joking or I’m sorry.

Like, I, I just thought that that’s where this was. You know, they’ll they they pull back on it. They apologize for it or they say it was a joke, but they’re testing you, especially if they say it’s a joke and not like.

I really apologize. I didn’t intend to hurt like whatever, but if there’s a genuine apology, that’s way different than a joke. Yeah.

And. I noticed that in when I had interactions where somebody made some kind of sexual reference or something that I had to say set up a kind of like I’m not going to I’m not going to engage in that kind of talk or whatever. They always they eventually unmatched me pretty quickly or so they weren’t interested anymore when they realized that I wasn’t going to be somebody they can get the responses they want from.

They so. Yeah, they’re looking for someone that they they can do whatever they want and not going to have boundaries. Mm hmm.

So setting boundaries during those early stages can can let you know a lot about a person. So I was talking a little bit about Chris’s story and and some of the, you know, she actually decided to just take a full on break from dating after after that experience. Even though after the stated a little bit after her toxic relationship.

But so we were talking about these this chatting and this kind of like early stages. What are some signs in early dating and in a new relationship that things are developing into something toxic? Yeah. I mean, I think definitely as we’ve discussed, like not respecting boundaries is huge.

Right. I think that is like one of the number one things like how do they respect your boundary, even if your boundary is maybe it’s your it’s doesn’t matter how big or small your boundary is. I guess that’s my point.

Yeah. Do they respect it? And then if you are talking about something that is really important to you or something deeper, I think, first of all, being able to have those conversations that they can hold space for those conversations. But also then when appropriate, do they also share something deep about themselves? I think trying to match vulnerability levels, not necessarily in the same conversation or on the same date, but like with closely, they should be sharing as much as you are sharing and not to the point where anybody feels awkward where you’re both feeling comfortable with that.

I think that’s going to tell you whether or not they’ll be able to continue holding space, but also like it will show maybe how much they care versus someone who’s toxic and is just trying to control is not going to care. But they do also do a good job pretending. I would look at the codependency piece that we’ve discussed, like how much time you’re spending with them.

Are you having enough time, like at least a couple of days between dates at the beginning? Are you having at least like, I don’t know, six to eight hours between texts at the very beginning, like some time to let your brain reset and like, yeah, enjoy the oxytocin and dopamine, but let your brain reset so you can have time to see how you really feel. I think in early dating, if you haven’t met their friends or like maybe like within the first couple months, maybe like whatever feels natural. But like, if you don’t know their friends or you haven’t seen where they live, then like, what else are they hiding? And like that, those are two clues of information too about who the person is, right? Like how they live, but also are their friends cool? Because if their friends aren’t cool, then like maybe they’re not actually cool either.

Maybe they’re faking who they are. I think that’s important. And also, okay, this is something I wanted to talk about the very beginning, but we had so many different aspects of dating advice, but this is going to kind of all come together, I guess.

But a lot of times people are like, oh yeah, I just like only look for if they’re liberal, like, great, me too. Okay, great. However, that is not necessarily enough.

Have conversations. Maybe it’s not the first date, maybe it’s like the third or fourth or something, but like have a nuanced conversation, like to see how their brain actually works about certain issues, whatever your issues are that are most important to you. And that will give you clues on, are they actually informed about what’s happening in the world? And do they have empathy in the way that they discuss it? And then that will probably be clues on how they’re going to be in the relationship too.

You can get a lot of information by listening to how the person talks about other people and other groups of people. And a potential, like, so something that I ask a lot of people who have been in relationships that are with emotionally abusive people and people with narcissistic behaviors is I ask them, did you ever, like, what was, when was the first time you had a feeling like a gut, your gut sink and be like, something’s off? Something’s wrong. And they all have the moment and that they remember from really early, like, this may be like, these are people who’ve been with these, who married, ended up marrying these people, usually when I ask that.

One person said it was on their wedding day. One person said it was when they were dating. Another person said it was like on a date when they first brought the person over to their house.

And they could all tell me that moment where they had that gut punch feel. And so if you are listening to somebody talk about another group of people and the way that they talk gives you that gut feeling, listen to that gut feeling if, because I think that that might, that might be an area where you would let it slide because it’s so abstract. However, it’s real valid information.

Yeah. And, and those are those early stages of dating are, are information gathering. And like we said, so often, the majority, the majority of the time, the person, when you date people, it’s not going to work out.

So it’s like, we don’t, we don’t need to feel bad when like about ourselves or about like feeling like we’re, we’re failing at dating or we’re not doing a good job because that is what dating is meeting people and saying, no, thank you. That’s the majority of dating because you’re not going to just find somebody who’s a good fit for you and you’re a good fit back for them very easily. It takes a lot of time.

I, I actually saw another person who has like a dating podcast, similar, I guess I haven’t listened to her podcast at all, but she posted something saying, I didn’t, I didn’t even know she had a podcast. I just thought she did dating content on social media, but that she went on over 61st, over 61st dates until she met somebody who is now her husband. And they’ve been married for like two years.

And I’m like, yeah, that’s, you know, that’s a lot of first dates. And it was over like a course of two years or something. And for me, it was like, I went on over 41st dates before I met somebody who became my boyfriend.

And we’re, we’ve been together a year now, almost a year. And just like, there’s so much attached to success and failure around relationships that it bothers me so much because I, I see people being like, why should somebody be giving dating relations, dating advice when all they have is failed relationships? What does that mean? A failed relationship because it didn’t last the length that you expect it to, like the measurement of relationship success is always by the length. And that is just so stupid.

It doesn’t make any logical sense. It’s not logical, but that’s what our society has attached success to. If you’re together, it’s a success.

If you’re not together, it’s a failure. The end, that is how it works. It’s connected to the capitalism and the patriarchy.

Amen. Yeah. Burn it to the ground.

Yes. And also within that, I also want to mention like second chances. People will often be like, oh, like a partner might say something and then try and ask for a second chance.

But listen to the instinct. What does your instinct say? A second chance because a person was late or like, oh my God, I totally forgot that we scheduled something on that day. I will, I’ll make it work or I’ll make it up to you.

It’s not the same thing as not caring about your feelings or saying something that’s offensive. Like you could have a second chance, but not if your instinct tells you no. Yeah.

And okay. As a therapist, do you have any little practices that people can follow to become more connected with listening to their gut, listening to their intuition? Because I feel like in our modern society, we are kind of disconnected from our bodies and like feeling in our bodies. So what are some, do you know some ways that could help people? Yes.

Well, I made this little checklist. I’ll put it on my website, actually. Yeah, I will put this checklist on my website.

And then send me the link. Yes. And then I’ll send you the link.

But it’s basically, it’s going through, like, literally, sometimes I will like suggest that people practice it every hour at first, but just checking in to be like, am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Am I tired? Do I have to pee? Like some of us neurodivergent people like forget to stand up and check those things, right? Like it’s starting with that. But then there’s a few other questions on there. I forgot the exact moment.

And then like some more like weekly questions, like have I seen my friends? Have I eaten a vegetable? Like, you know, going through these things, practicing those can, and yeah, if you’re checking in with yourself every hour as a practice for like a week, then you maybe don’t have to continue doing it every hour after that. But it helps you get used to it. And then the other thing is, especially in dating, and when you’re trying to like connect to like, who, like, is this a good fit or not? Ask yourself three questions.

Actually, I have two separate exercises. Okay, ask yourself three questions. Are you happy, safe, and free? Yeah, checking with that.

And then the other aspect there, and you can ask those three questions in this exercise. I guess I’ll do it that way. Yeah, ADHD brain is showing up.

So first, check in with your head. What does my head feel? Does my head feel happy, safe, free, or whatever question you’re trying to answer for yourself? And then check in with your heart and see what your heart says. And just give it a few seconds to listen.

And then check in with your gut. What does your gut say? And once those are in alignment, then you have your answer. That’s great.

I love that. Thank you. I was trying to think of examples of your intuition speaking to you or listening to your body or whatever.

And like kind of maybe a universal way to because some people might be like, what does that even mean? You know, some people like I grew up a theater kid, so I can do all sorts of those kind of exercises. But you know, some people are have not been exposed to any kind of self reflection or body check ins. And so a common scenario of listening to your gut is when you go to a restaurant.

And you open up the menu and you’re like, I want a cheeseburger. And you’re like cheeseburger cheeseburger. That’s what I’ve been thinking about.

That’s what I want. I know I want it. Or like your your immediate decision.

And then you start looking at the menu. And they’re like, you’re like, Oh, whoa, fish tacos. That sounds good, too.

And you don’t know what to choose. And then you end up choosing spaghetti. And you are you get the spaghetti and you’re like, I, I wanted the cheeseburger.

The cheeseburger was the thing that my instincts, my intuition knew I wanted. And maybe I needed the iron, maybe I needed the fat or something. And then I went and got something else.

Because I wasn’t listening to my gut. Or maybe I listened to everybody else. Everybody else was getting something.

And I didn’t want to get the same as somebody or something happened to make you not listen to that to what you really wanted. And I feel like we can all a lot of us can relate to that scenario. Yeah, I think that’s a really good example.

And so maybe practicing when you go to a restaurant of just ordering the first thing that you your body and mind all kind of just, it jumps out at you, right? Like, it’s, you know, yeah, yeah, I think that our bodies know so much more than, than we give them credit for. And we think everything has to be this like, like, the reasoning around things has been decided. And that’s how it goes.

But really, those are made up. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s kind of bound upon, but it shouldn’t be.

Yeah. I also want to add to that is that the gut actually does inform our brain. So in the gut, the system of our brain, it’s like, okay, I’m going to make a decision based on my gut.

And I’m going to make a decision based on my intuition. Well, I don’t know all the exact organ science, but in the gut, it’s creating all of the neurotransmitters and the neurotransmitters are going to your brain and the neurotransmitters are oxytocin and dopamine and serotonin and cortisol and norepinephrine and all the things that help us make decisions literally starts in our gut. So I think people try to like not believe that, oh, listen to your gut, that doesn’t make any sense.

But like, it’s literally giving us information. And so when you feel that sinking feeling in your gut, that’s literally like when people call things a gut punch, that sinking feeling and I mean, girls, she says my stomach wanted to fall out of my butt. That’s portrayed by Regina George.

So those feelings and those descriptions exist because there’s truth to it. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, we should listen to it. Yeah. Are you doing anything fun for Halloween? Um, I am going to be Baby Spice with my friends.

We’re all going to be Spice Girls. Yay! Are all five of you or four of you? Yes. Yeah, we have five of us.

Yeah, we’ll do the whole, it is five, right? Is it four? I mean, Ginger left. So depends on when you’re doing it. Oh, no, Ginger’s there.

Yeah, we’ll have all five of us. Yes. And then that’ll be the day before Halloween.

And then on the day of, there’s a cool event at the Science Center. So I’m going to go to that and just do like a little easier costume. Fun.

Who was your favorite Spice Girl? And or is still? Well, my crushes were on Posh and Mel B. And now I don’t know that I necessarily have a favorite. I was sort of, it was like, who makes sense to me? What? Yeah. Spice Girl.

And so, yeah. Which one do you have a crush on now? If you had to choose one? Probably Mel B. Maybe Ginger. Mel B for me.

I don’t know. Yeah. I mean, I was prepared to answer because my boyfriend asked me.

We were like, which Spice Girl would we get with if we had to get with one? It was Ginger. Yeah. But I don’t know.

What are you doing for Halloween? I am in a Halloween show, a showcase of macabre and spooky songs. It’s with my theater group and I am going to be Winifred Sanderson and performing I Put a Spell on You. Oh my gosh.

From Hocus Pocus. I have a full Winifred costume. That’s going to be amazing.

I’m really excited. I’m also in, we’re doing a few other numbers. So it’s like a bunch of different songs, like villain songs and stuff.

I’m one of the hyenas in Be Prepared. And we’re doing Poor Unfortunate Souls as a trio. I’m in the trio.

And then I am, we’re doing Ex-Wives from Six. I don’t know if you know the musical Six. It’s great.

Anyway, I’m the survivor Catherine Parr. That’s the sixth wife of Henry VIII. Ah, okay.

Yeah, Six is really fun. It’s a concert really more than a play. And it’s the six wives of Henry VIII each telling their stories.

And so they all have songs that explain their life story and they do some songs together. It’s really fun. And it’s like pop stars.

They’re all like, each one is based off of a pop star. So it’s really cool. I recommend it.

Yeah. I will check it out. I think there’s a live recording you could stream like a live professional video shoot from either West End or Broadway.

I’m a theater nerd, which I think everybody knows by now. So I’m so excited to play Winifred. I already had a Winifred Sanderson costume.

So I’m like so excited to get to do that. I’m just ecstatic. So that’s on Friday night before Halloween and on Halloween.

So, well, I’m excited for you to do the Science Center thing. That sounds really fun. Yeah, it’s on mushrooms.

Yeah. Ooh. I love mushrooms.

Yeah, it should be really fascinating. Yeah, that’s one of the things that I gleaned from my marriage is my ex-husband was really into mushrooms and mushroom hunting and that kind of stuff. And so I got really into it.

I already loved like mushrooms, eating them. But then I learned how to like forage and I learned different ways to cook mushrooms. And that has stuck with me, my love of mushrooms from that relationship.

That’s nice to have something to carry on that was good from a past relationship. A lot of things. A lot of things.

He was a good person. And I assume he still is a good person. I really hope so.

I have not talked to him in like 10 years. OK. Well, thank you so much, Kate, for joining.

I will have links from Kate’s website on my shout outs and resources page and I’ll have links to her social media as well. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

You’re welcome. And if there if we get more questions to discuss, would you be willing to come back? I would love to. Yeah, absolutely.

It’d be great after I like cut this up and make you say weird stuff when I edit it. I’m just kidding. Thanks for listening to Ask Elisa.

I’m your host, Elisa Sparkman. This episode was produced and edited by me. And the music is by Jacob Patterson.