Ask Elisa Podcast

PODCAST EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

It’s Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick, a podcast about dating in your late 30s, 40s, and older. I’m Elisa. I found myself unexpectedly single right before my 40th birthday.

And now with two years of dating under my belt, let’s talk about it. Today, my guest is Hillary. Hi, Hillary.

Hi. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I am a high school teacher just outside of Seattle, and I am 40 years old, almost 41. So when it comes to dating, I firmly believe that if you choose to date, it should be part of your life and not your whole life.

So before we get into talking about dating, let’s take a few minutes to share something about ourselves or our lives that’s interesting, exciting, that we’re proud of or happy about that has nothing to do with romantic relationships, because we are so much more than our love lives. Do you want to share something first? Yeah, I actually struggled thinking of what I would want to share, but I think probably the thing that says the most about me is I got an exchange, a puzzle exchange started at my work. I am a high school teacher, so there are a bunch of us that, because puzzles are expensive.

If you’re a jigsaw puzzler, it’s like $20 a puzzle at least. So a bunch of us found out we all like to puzzle, and so we will share them around. And we got actually other people at one of the middle schools to start as well.

So I think it just says quite a bit that I would love to sit around and just do a nice jigsaw puzzle. I feel like it helps kind of declench after the day. And if you’re wondering, do I have a headlamp for puzzling? I do, in fact.

I do a puzzle every New Year’s at least. And I usually end up doing a puzzle in the summer too. I have one of those puzzle rotating things.

You have one of those? Yep. Yeah, so I love jigsaw puzzles too. With the drawers and everything, yeah.

The drawers. I mean, it’s brilliant. Whoever designed that? Yeah.

My two best friends also like to do puzzles, and so we share puzzles a lot. See? It’s a thing. I love that.

What a contribution to your co-workers’ lives. Right. It’s my sole purpose, basically.

What size puzzles do you normally do? So some of us will do the thousands. One of my co-workers, it’s just too much for her. She’s like, the pieces are too small.

So she’ll only do the 500s. So we just know if it’s a thousand, we’ll just skip her in the list. But usually 500s, 1000s, I don’t know, 750, you know? Yeah.

Mix it up. I like a thousand. And a lot of times I just like to do it.

Start it on New Year’s Eve and try to finish it within the next couple days. I usually do it, like, I don’t go to New Year’s parties. I puzzle.

I feel like I just don’t have the energy for that anymore. I will share about myself that I have a skill of flower arranging. Yeah, you do.

So back when I was married, I started doing flowers for weddings. So I’ve done flower arranging for a few weddings. I haven’t done one in a while.

It’s a lot of work, but I absolutely love putting together a bridal bouquet. It’s so fun. I love making bridal bouquets.

Centerpieces are difficult because you have to make a ton of them. They take a lot of time, but I love having fresh flowers in my house throughout the whole growing season. And I like to grow flowers and arrange them.

I’m going to have to keep that in mind. September, are there good flowers? Yeah. September in Western Washington is like the best time for flowers.

Perfect. I’ll be hitting you up probably. All right.

Why? Because I’m probably going to get married in September. Yes, probably. Well, we haven’t fully decided on the date, but we’re kind of thinking end of September.

We’re going to do just like either a courthouse, like city hall, or have a friend marry us, probably. Oh, okay. So then probably just like a really, like just a few things.

I would love to do that. Yeah. Like one bouquet.

And I don’t think she’d want a bouquet. I think she’d probably want just like a boutonniere. I love making boutonnieres too.

Yeah. I was like, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t want one, but you never know. I don’t know.

Sometimes she surprises me. Yeah. I’m like, oh, okay.

All right. So our listeners are picking up that you are getting married to a woman. Yes.

So happy Pride Month, everybody. Happy Pride. Hey, gay.

My first gay guest. Yes. I guess my share about doing flower arrangements ended up being tied to romantic relationships because I was saying I did flowers for weddings, but it didn’t have to do with my romantic relationship.

Oh yeah. No, I just thought more of the skill. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s the skill. Also, I’m looking at a bouquet that you’ve arranged.

So I’m seeing like live proof of it. Yes. I guess.

And sometimes I’ll just like make a bouquet and put it in my mom’s house for her. I love that. Yeah.

My mom taught me how to do flowers. She does flowers. I love that.

I love that. What I love about life is the way that you make different connections and like meet people and how it can be like, cause we’ve known each other a long time now that I think about it since like 2004. Yeah.

I was going to say since college. Yeah. Yeah.

But we didn’t go to college together. One of my best friends from high school went to college and had a roommate and it was you. Yep.

And you guys became friends. And so I became friends with you too. Yeah.

And we had, I think you were with her and came to a party, like a birthday party for me or something. Yeah. I think so.

Yeah. Maybe. And then you needed a ride back to Bellingham.

Yes. And so we rode, we rode together. Yeah.

And we got to know each other and we like. We talked about movies and music. Yeah.

We, we sang a lot of Billy Joel in the car and we just had a great time. Yeah. It was really fun.

I feel like social media, which was basically invented around that time when we were in college. The Facebook.com. Yeah. The Facebook.

I actually remember that, that your, our mutual friend. Yeah. Was the first time I saw, I saw on her AOL instant messenger, a little away message that had a link to her Facebook.

It said Facebook me and an exclamation point. And I clicked on it. I’m like, what is this? Yes.

Back when you had to have like a university email. Yeah. To be part of it.

Yeah. Wow. The lives we’ve led, we’ve been through a lot as millennials.

Me telling my students, you have to have an email to get in. Yeah. And you were only connected to like your college at first, I think.

Yeah. Interesting. I just wanted to share how we met, how we became connected.

And I think through social media, that’s really allowed us to like, kind of stay in touch and kind of continue to get to know each other, even though we haven’t like hung out a ton, probably like three or four times, maybe more than that. More than that. Yeah.

Over the past 20 years. Yeah. Wow.

There’s parts we always don’t see and that’s like the catch-up times, but to be able to cheer each other on is nice. Yeah. To know when each one of us is getting married and getting divorced and all that kind of stuff.

The big moments. Yeah. So yeah, tell us your story, your romantic history.

Yeah. Mine, I didn’t date a lot in high school. I actually started dating my now ex-wife when I was in high school.

We were juniors in high school and we started dating into college. We went to colleges on different coasts and we broke up a lot, like a lot. We were young and definitely that was pre-therapy, I would say as well.

And we ended up breaking up for good in college. And that’s when I kind of went out and lived my life a little bit. But I didn’t have any other girlfriends, anything like that.

And then I went to grad school and I ended up reconnecting with my ex-girlfriend. And we started dating again and then we ended up getting married. And we were married for nine years and we got divorced.

And I hadn’t looked it up just to be sure. In 2021, September 2021 was when it became official. So I think my therapist asked me if the divorce was a result of COVID, right? She had seen a lot of COVID divorces.

So she just had me reflect on it a little bit before I officially made the call. But I thought that was interesting. So I was like, yeah, it really was like right around COVID times.

And then we got divorced, sold our house, went our separate ways. And I just enjoyed living life as a single person for the first time for a long time. And can I ask how you identify your sexuality? Yeah, I am bisexual.

It is interesting because I, well, not interesting, I guess. But the difference between bisexuality and pansexuality was something I had to kind of think about and make a call about like, how would I label myself? Especially, I feel like when I was in a marriage, I just, I mean, I was bisexual, but I was not really looking for anything else. So I didn’t really think about my sexuality a lot.

It just, I was with my wife, you know? So did you just like identify as a lesbian? No, I still identified as bisexual. It just was not something that I was thinking about as far as like, I don’t know. And people weren’t asking you.

Yeah, no, yeah. It wasn’t a topic conversation, people, yeah. And I think a lot of people assumed, it’s actually one of my co-workers, when I got divorced, I was pretty sure that after the messy marriage and in my mind, I thought, if I’m getting divorced from a woman and this didn’t work out, it’s time to be with men then.

And one of my co-workers didn’t know that I was bisexual, so she was very confused. She was like, well, I don’t, you’ve been married for so long to a woman. I didn’t even know you liked men.

And I was like, yeah, unfortunately. So that was my thought was that I am absolutely going to date men, probably marry a man in the future. And I thought, you know, just didn’t work out with women.

And now I’m engaged to a lovely woman. So that didn’t work out. When you got divorced, how long did you wait before you started dating? I didn’t wait that long.

Honestly, we had separated and obviously we shared a house together. So we were in separate bedrooms, kind of separate schedules a little bit. At that point, we shared six animals together, which, you know, makes for a good amount of needed communication.

But otherwise, we were kind of like two ships in the night. And it had been, I would say it had been a long time coming. And so I think in a lot of ways, having already like mourned the end of the relationship and getting to the point where if I felt comfortable to say that I wanted a divorce, it’s because I knew it was fully done.

Our mutual friend, actually, I’d asked, she had gotten divorced before I did. And we had gotten, you know, every time we went to brunch or every time we caught up, we would share stories about our spouses. And it was just kind of the same story.

And it was the same thing over and over again. And here we are, like we’re trying the therapy, we’re trying the communication. And it’s just the same thing.

And I can’t change someone else. And so once we had a final straw with some emotional cheating on her part with someone from work, I just knew I was done. And someone that has that little consideration for you, I didn’t feel like I owed them too much at that point.

So we both started dating, I would say maybe like a month after we separated. Yeah, I, I’m a big proponent of everybody being on their own timeline for that. I, I hear a lot of judgment around, around it to the point where after I got divorced, where I was in my early 30s, and I’d met somebody I felt embarrassed to like, to actually, I, it took me a long time to be able to say, yes, I like this person, I want to date him, I want him to be my boyfriend, because I thought I have, I should be single for a while, I need to date around.

Like, those are all these, they’re narratives that just kind of take over when they maybe for maybe, you know, self reflection is always important. But it doesn’t really mean every person needs to take time after a divorce. And also, divorces take so long.

And when you are at the point where you are coming out with the divorce and telling people, so much processing has already happened. And so that’s part of why I don’t really believe that people should judge when other, others are ready to start dating. Did you get any judgment? Probably not to my face.

I feel like most people, most people that know me know that I put a lot of thought into decisions. Yeah, good. And yeah, and I didn’t want a relationship right off the bat.

Not to say I just wanted to like, just be a big floozy. Sorry for that language. You can say whatever you want on this podcast.

We’re rated, we’re rated explicit. Yeah. All right.

Then I mean, I kind of want to be a little harlot, then I’ll say it. I know, TVMA. Um, so, but I, no, I just, I wanted to just kind of like live my life and be free and kind of do what I wanted.

I think when I first got divorced, people almost thought that I would want to be in a relationship again. So I think that’s interesting. Maybe it’s like you wanting to be in a relationship and people like, no, go ahead, live your life, slut it up.

Um, when I was like, no, I just, I don’t want a lot of attachment. I basically was raising another human in a marriage. Right.

I don’t want more responsibility. I, um, I want to just only have to take care of myself, um, and live my life and do things kind of on my terms, uh, for once, instead of putting someone else first and having it not work out, you know? So, uh, I liked that. I liked, um, just kind of being a little bit free in that way.

Yeah. I did not sleep around a lot in high school or college really even. Um, and so I feel like as a grown woman, being able to like do that was kind of empowering.

Yeah. Same. I really felt way more grounded in who I, who I am and what I want and what I can do.

And all of the, the dating I did after my breakup in 2024, I felt empowered with it. When in the past, I probably, I got attached really quickly and this time I was like really, I felt really healthy in my, my attachment. Yeah.

Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah.

When I did find someone interesting, right? Like the perfect combination of like, they seemed like a very full person, interesting, had time and energy to put into a relationship. Um, you know, dating did happen, but at that point I was mostly just dating women. So, so what, so you dated men? Yes.

Did you use the dating apps? I did. So how did you set your dating apps up? So I would say probably for the first, I should ask my friends. They have great memory of some of them.

I would say probably for the first six months of dating, maybe a little bit less. I think I exclusively dated men and then I had one kind of terrible date and then decided I need to, I need to branch out again. So when I first started, I, I think I just was exclusively on Tinder, honestly, cause I had learned that’s where, that’s where you go if you don’t want major commitments.

Um, and so yeah, probably about like three months or so. I dated some people like multiple times, um, to the point where like I met a child of someone’s. That person then later ghosted me about a week later, which is kind of funny cause I’m like, that’s weird to do.

Oh, of course. Yeah. Some of like the most abhorrent dating stories have been from men, but, um, but not all actually, which is kind of wild.

Probably my craziest, um, dating experience was with a female. And that was that, that I took a break from about maybe like two weeks, I think after that. Cause you’re like, you don’t, you don’t know who really people are.

Um, so I had to take a little break, especially living by myself. It’s a little, it can get scary. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I had somebody who I made some, I made a poor judgment call and let him come over on for the first date. And I don’t feel like he was actually dangerous, but he was not happy with some of my disclosures about my life.

So I, this was pretty early on and I had been, I had a casual relationship. We were just sharing about like our dating life. And I, I disclosed that I, I was seeing somebody casually while, you know, like, um, continuing to date.

So, you know, hopefully find a boyfriend. Yeah. Not locked into anyone.

And he was like, well, when was the last time you saw the casual person? And I was, and it had been recently. So I was like recently, and he was really upset that I had seen that. Like, he was like, well, you know, he seemed upset, but he’s lasted the rest of the date.

And then when the next day I got texts from him about like how he couldn’t trust me and how he’s like, how’s this? Cause he lived like an hour away from me. So he’s like, how am I supposed to know if we date? And then that you’re not seeing your fuck buddy. And I was just like, I don’t know.

It was just like, first of all, I hadn’t even met you yet. Yeah. Like I haven’t, you were upset that I, that I hooked up with somebody before I met you? Yes.

It was like, cause we were, we’d actually, we’d already matched and talked and our date was planned. And I just actually was so, I got the texts. Like I woke up in the middle of the night and saw them on my phone and I was really tired.

So I was just like, you don’t know anything about me. And I’m so, and he, the reason why I let him come to my house is because he’d hurt his, he’d hurt his ankle. And, and he was driving all the way down here.

And I was like, well, why don’t you just come straight to my place? And we’ll just order pizza and you can ice it and stuff. And so I’m like, I’m sorry that you, you know, came all this way with your hurt ankle to get disappointed. Like, Oh, that’s crazy.

That is interesting. Cause that’s probably the, one of the biggest things I noticed about dating men versus dating women is just the ego alone. Like that, the idea of, if you’re even talking to someone, they owe you something.

I’ve never experienced that with, I mean, well, one of my stories is very similar to yours, except crazier. But, um, most women, like they never, it’s, it’s all, everything is what it is, right? You say something, they believe you. Why would you not believe them? Right.

And so just like, there wasn’t that idea of like, you owe me anything. I was really big on dates. I don’t know if you were about like, I, I liked paying for the first date.

I don’t like feeling like I owe someone anything. So I often would offer to pay for the first date, just because I don’t want it to be like, if I didn’t like it, I didn’t want that hanging over that feeling of if I did this. Yeah.

So why aren’t you XYZing? I would offer to pay for myself usually if I knew I didn’t want a second date. Because I know from, I knew from other people who were, like guys who were dating who were saying like, it gets expensive, you know? And so I, I think that, and then if they insisted, I would let them pay. You’re like, I’m not going to fight you on it.

Yeah. Okay. After all, I am just a little lady.

Thanks. Yeah. It’s nice to be treated.

Yeah. That’s why I like doing it too, you know? Yeah, definitely. Also, I do think that you can learn a lot about a person if you offer to pay, like what is their reaction if they are affronted by it? What does that say? Like you get to know a little bit.

It’s a, you get a little read on a person, I think. So do you have examples of like the ego that you came across in men that was different? Like what you’re just saying, do you have some examples? One of the most boring dates I went on, there was just like a series of unfortunate events. We were messaging and decided that we would go to this.

This sounds really sketchy. Now that I learn more about it, I think it is actually a little sketchy. But the website makes it look completely fine.

But in Federal Way, there’s the hot tub rental. It’s Elliott Bay Hot Tub Company. This is not sponsored, but you can rent hot tubs by the hour.

And it’s a room. And of course, like probably things go down. I’ve heard of this.

Things absolutely go down. But all the reviews were like, it’s clean. It’s like whatever.

They don’t take reservations. You just kind of have to go there and show up. So by the time we actually got our stuff together, he will, one, he was very insistent.

He was like, I can pick you up. And I do not let people pick me up. I don’t want you to know where I live.

I will meet you wherever. I will stay sober and drive rather than like have someone pick me up or whatever. But so very insistent on picking me up.

Finally, I probably had to say no like maybe seven times. Like it was a lot. So meet there.

We find out like it’s probably not going to happen with the hot tubs. So what do you mean? Like it was so late. It was like nine o’clock.

I think they closed at 11. It was like you could come back at 10 and do like 10 to 11. And I’m like, I’m not going to like sit and make small talk.

And then like then I have to sit and make small talk in a hot tub. And I was just kind of like realizing all together. I’m like, I’m really kind of glad this didn’t work out.

But so I said, okay, well, this isn’t going to work out. What do you want to do? And he immediately like went to anchor. He was like, well, I don’t know.

Like you figure it out because that was my idea. And I guess it’s not going to work out. And I was like, okay, I should have just called it then, you know, in retrospect.

But I ended up looking up. There was a sports bar nearby. Let’s go there.

We get there. Um, I order a Coke because I’m like, I’m not, I’m not going to drink. I order first.

I order a Coke and he orders a double whiskey, something or other. And I was like, oh no. Okay.

I do also think he probably drove drunk there. I do. And then, so I’m waiting.

Like it’s basically, it was basically an interview. I, it lasted about an hour because it took a long time to get the check. And I would ask him a question and he would answer it.

And then he would just kind of stare at me. So then I would ask another question. I’m great at small talk.

I, you know, I talk to kids at seven in the morning to like keep them awake, you know, so I can keep, I can do small talk with almost anyone, but I don’t think I was asked a single question in the hour. So I finally flagged the server down, gave him money, like just cash for the thing and left and I immediately blocked the guy. But it was wild that some of the things I was like, oh, are you close to your family? That’s one of my favorite questions.

Or tell me about your family. Cause then they get to choose what they tell or not. And he told this story about how he and his brother, he’s like, well, I’m not talking to my brother right now.

And I was like, oh, that’s really sad. And I was like, why? You know, cause I’m nosy too. So I’m like, why? Tell me why.

I would have been the same way. Tell me. And he said that he, his brother was picking on him.

And next thing he knew, he knew, next thing he knew, next thing he knew, he was being pulled off of his brother and he was beating the living shit out of him. And he was like, I don’t know. I just kind of blacked out.

Oh my gosh. And I thought that my face was masking it well, but clearly not. Cause he was like, oh, are you scared? Were you making the face that I was just making? Like I was just like, I was like, I was doing the emoji or like hands on my cheeks and like black out and you’re beating the shit out of your brother.

Um, I, yeah, I thought I was doing a good job asking. Like I’m told some wild stuff sometimes and have to stay pretty neutral and professional. Um, but clearly I wasn’t, but he was like, oh, what’s, oh, are you scared? And just like, even though he said it, I was like, I don’t like that.

So no, that was like, I was like, I’m, I’m good. Let’s, let’s wrap this up. That’s scary.

Yeah. Any person that tells you about a physical altercation on a first date run? Black out. Black out on anger.

I’m like, well, that would be a good relationship. I definitely think I want that. So safe drive back to your parents’ house where you’re living.

He was living at his parents’ house? Yeah. Probably got fired for some sort of emotional rage or something. Wow.

What kind of differences did you see on their profiles? Like what, like men’s profiles versus women’s profiles. And these are like the profiles that you would see for, I’m just saying the last episode, we had like, um, a straight guy’s perception of what he sees on straight women’s profiles, basically, or just women who date men. Maybe they’re not straight.

So I’m saying like thinking you wouldn’t be seeing straight women’s profiles. Correct. These are like queer women’s profiles.

Yes. Versus straight or queer men’s profiles. Yeah.

And I did, I did date some queer men. Um, I, I, well, I don’t think in general I’d date anyone who isn’t like accepting of anyone, you know, like just, I’m almost like radically about let people be themselves. Usually does not affect me in any way.

So if you have a very strict view of how people should be, we’re probably not going to just drive in general. I would say the biggest thing I saw on men’s profiles that was surprising to me, maybe, um, as far as like differences between women is the amount of men that would talk about, um, good women. Like if where are all the quality women, all these things.

Um, if you don’t X, Y, and Z don’t even bother talking to me or even just a lot of people would say like certain things that they wanted or didn’t want. Right. So, um, I did not want children.

If someone already had children negotiable. Um, but I personally did not want to have children. Um, and so I was very clear about that in my profile.

So then you have people that are like absolutely want children and then matching with you. I don’t know if it’s the literacy crisis or what, but I didn’t get that from women, right? Yeah, though men don’t read the profiles. And so I’m like, why, why are you not though? So that was like the quality women looking and looking for a quality woman.

Where are they? I’ve looked everywhere. You aren’t around the rashness of that. And then also the illiteracy, right? Not even taking the time to make sure that your values align.

What I see in men, men’s profiles and what you’re kind of describing is also this, like putting women down in their profile or like even putting the reader down. Like you as the reader, they’re like, they’re like. It will be like a breaking the fourth wall almost.

Yeah, a lot of men have so much hatred toward women that I don’t think they realize it. And then maybe they think they’re being transparent almost. Yeah.

Or like that they’re, that they’re like, well, no, I’m just like, like I’m just calling it like it is or whatever. But really, no, you are like, literally you hate women. Yeah.

And it’s, I’m actually grateful when they are clear in their profile like that. So, you know, you can avoid them, right? But your profile is all caps. Yeah.

Or when they’re just like looking for this ideal woman, that is whatever they’ve kind of decided in their mind is what, what they want. Or, or they’re like, or there’s often like this bragging of how they have their life all together. And the only thing they’re missing is that, that exact perfect puzzle piece of a woman to fit right into their life.

So it’s like, you don’t want a whole, a whole person. You don’t want, you know, like a full adult woman. Yeah.

At that point, you’re… It’s a checklist item. Yep. Yeah.

I don’t think I ever saw a woman with her credit score on her profile. Oh, yeah. Now I’m thinking about it.

I was like, what are some of those things? But yeah, when you’re, the list of the qualities, right? I have a good job. I have a good house. I just can’t find a woman.

Why do you think that is, sir? They’re like, I have everything in order. I have a six figure. I make six figures.

I have this. I have that. And all I need is, all I need is you.

To fit right in. And, and also, oh, what is like, don’t take yourself, don’t take yourself too seriously. A woman who doesn’t take herself too seriously.

That is something that a lot of men say. And it’s like, they want, they want like the, the cool woman who’s not gonna, not gonna hold them accountable to anything. Do you see stuff like that in women’s profiles? No, girls are cute.

Like girls are so, you can tell, like, I don’t know if you did, but I would always run my profile through my friends. Right. Or like, what do you think about these pictures? Is it a good combination? Does it really show who I am? Right.

The idea of like authenticity and wanting to give a good, clear, like balanced, just first glance at who you are and have it be authentic. Um, I think authenticity is something that showed up a lot more in women’s profiles. Um, and women would be very direct too.

It’s, I feel like that’s kind of what, I think guys could look at some queer women’s profiles and take some notes. Um, because the idea of like being able to say, these are the things that I want, non-negotiables, open to just the clarity of, of knowing what you want, but stating it in just a very matter of fact way, not all capitals yelling with a checklist of what you have to offer, but yelling at the reader. Right, exactly.

And then also some profiles would be completely blank, obviously. So it’s not to say like every woman put a ton of time into things. Um, but I also liked when people were really trying to show their humor.

Um, one of the reasons I originally matched with my current fiance is, um, and actually she’s the only person I matched with at all on Hinge. Um, I paid the extra money. It was expensive.

I think it was like $30 and other things for like $10 a month. But I was like, let me give it a try. She’s the only person I ever matched with, went on a date with.

And then of course now, like, you know, the end of all my dating, uh, dating app relationships. So, but one thing I really loved about hers was on Hinge you can do sound, uh, sound notes. Um, and I think that’s a great way to like show off a little bit of the personality and hers was a rant about people going to the bathroom with the door open, specifically like a number two, like close the door, please.

And I just thought, um, those moments to add in a little bit of personality. I saw that a lot on women’s profiles. Like just that little bit of like, here’s my humor.

Here’s the quirky thing about me. Um, a lot of like my friends say about me or how their friends would describe them. Um, which I really love.

Cause I’m like, I think that going into dating, being very purposeful about, Hey, I just really want to sleep around. Or Hey, I’m sleeping around, but I’m open to a relationship or I just kind of want a relationship. That intentionality is something that I saw a lot more on the women’s profiles.

Um, and not to say that men didn’t, but sometimes they would say it and you could, you just knew or found out pretty soon that they’d actually didn’t mean it. Um, you don’t actually want a relationship. You, you really kind of just want to sleep around and that’s fine.

Yeah. Yeah. I have this, um, I have this idea around profiles and being authentic where what I did after I took a break, I took a couple months off of the dating apps.

And then when I got back on, I really, really wanted to repel the kind of men that I don’t want. So I was like, I am going to put my most annoying self up front. And that is, that’s how I kind of like got myself to be as authentic as I can be.

And I chose pictures where I’m not wearing any makeup. And I did the audio prompt of a Britney Spears impression, which I have not shared publicly. And my boyfriend who liked that profile and, and the commented on my impression as a way to, you know, um, I think he said I was brave for doing that now that I think about it.

Yeah. Um, I don’t think he said it was good. I think he said I was brave.

That was bold of you. Yeah. Um, but he, he said, do not do my Britney Spears impression on the podcast.

If this gets 1000 likes. No, I, I, if I, if I get, um, a thousand monthly downloads or a month, a thousand monthly listens, which is what I need to get in order to, um, have ads on my podcast to start to actually make money from it. I will share my Britney Spears impression.

You heard it here. Yeah. I will do it.

Um, Jake will not like that, but that’s okay. He gets secondhand embarrassment from me, which I think, you know, that’s his problem. Not mine.

Yeah. Um, I’m fine being a weirdo. Yeah.

I don’t get, I don’t really get embarrassed anymore very much. So, you know, actually a lot of students of mine tell me, and they’re like, I felt okay being my weird self because you are very weird. And I said, thank you.

That really means a lot. Yeah. That is a huge compliment.

It really is. Cause I’m like, yeah, I love that you can be yourself. Cause yeah, you are kind of weird.

And I like that. Yeah. Tell me more about your roadblocks.

I don’t know. I just like nod and pretend. I don’t know much about anything.

Yes. Be passionate. Exactly.

Can I ask, were you ever on Tinder? Okay. I downloaded Tinder because I saw somebody on the, are we dating the same guy? Facebook group posts that they thought their fiance was on Tinder. They thought they saw their, um, the Tinder icon on their phone.

And, um, and I knew this person from like back in the day and I was Facebook friends with them. And so I sent her a message and said, Hey, I’ll download Tinder and look for your fiance. I love that.

Yeah. So I. Boots on the ground journalism. I just, I just wanted to, I wanted to get all up in that drama.

Oh yeah. No, I love it. It’s like a side quest.

Yeah. I have a tattoo of Harriet the spy. It seems like very Harriet the spy.

Wow. That’s a huge compliment. Also girls, girl.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I want to find this asshole.

Like I want to burn him to the ground. Don’t you dare. Did you find.

Don’t you dare cheat on my Facebook friend that I knew in high school and haven’t talked to since. I did not find him, but I also found that I hated Tinder. I like, I swiped through, I saw my ex on Tinder and I was like, Oh, I took that photo.

Isn’t that wild. Yeah. That’s happened to me quite a few times.

I was like you bitch. I took that photo of you. No, I, I actually suggested that he use that on his dating profile.

I think I might’ve even sent it to him to be like, cause we were buddies. But grudgingly you’re like, this would be good. It felt a little weird seeing him on Tinder, but I also was just like block.

Because I didn’t want him to see me on there. Yeah. But other than that, I never saw him on any other dating apps, but I, I looked for her fiance.

I didn’t see him. I also, I was going to visit somebody on the East coast during this time. And so I got to kind of see what it was like over in the Washington DC area.

And I made a couple of matches and I was just kind of like, who knows, you know, like what if I meet an amazing person here? No, I’m not an East coast girl. Not at all. Nope.

Nope. Your curls will look great in the humidity though. I think.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean they do.

Yeah. But I am definite that there is just too much like materialism and like formality. Like it’s the East coast is just more formal than the West coast.

And I am, I’m not a formal gal. The first time my boyfriend, now boyfriend was coming over to hang out. He texted like, I can wear sweats.

Right. And I was like, please. Yes.

And as soon as I get home, I change into sweats and he does the same thing. We’re both like, we like to just lounge around and be comfy and I call it marshmallowing. Oh, I love that.

Yeah. So we like to be marshmallows. Seeing we get into our cozies.

Also, I don’t like outside clothes inside. It’s kind of like, I don’t know. It’s a thing.

But yeah, the reason I ask is the hardest decision I had to make on dating apps was on Tinder because you can choose your song, your Anthem song almost. And it’s a lot of pressure. What did you choose? Well, I did.

I went through a few, but what, what I ended up sticking with once I kind of found out that this was, I guess, quote, going to be my song was Fat Bottom Girls. Oh, okay. Right? Yeah.

I feel like it says a lot. You were talking about how you wanted to kind of portray yourself as someone who would like weed out like your profile, something that would weed out anyone who was not going to vibe. So I did that too.

I immediately, I had all of my like flags very clearly like Black Lives Matter, trans rights. Like if you, I, I never dated anyone who even said moderate for political, moderate is you’re not moderate. Most, you know, let’s be real.

And so, but yeah, choosing, choosing the song was a big, I don’t even remember that being an option. Yeah. And you can connect to Spotify.

Yeah. Oh, you could connect your Spotify. I didn’t do that because I mean, I listened to a lot of original Broadway cast recordings.

And so I feel like that is personal. I put that I love, that I love Broadway and that I’m a Broadway nerd, like right up front that I love musical theater. That’s on my profile.

They don’t, they don’t need to see it at my Spotify. My, I, I’m a YouTube music person and you can judge that’s fine. But I only use Spotify for, um, I would say like adult times with my fiance.

It started as a, as a bit, but, um, if you ever put on like, or have music on and it’s kind of like a weird vibe and you notice it and you’re like, Oh, that’s weird. So one time jazz was playing and then it became a bit that I would just play jazz every time. Um, even if we’re snuggling, right? Like jazz is on.

So when they do the Spotify age, um, my age was 100 years old. I didn’t even think I told people they’re like, you’re kidding. I had to take a screenshot.

I’ve never seen it that high. Mine’s like 70 something. They’re like, do you, if you like classic rock, whatever, usually you’re like 60s, 70s.

My fiance’s was, I think 60s. She does a lot of like kind of older music. I like a lot of Motown.

They thought I was 100 years old. Cause all I listened to is jazz. Yeah.

But yeah, fat bottom girls. So funny. Yeah.

I didn’t like Tinder. I just, it was, I didn’t like the, the interface. Um, back in the day, like in 2016, when I was on the dating apps, I hated Tinder.

Cause you only, you didn’t have a profile. You just had like a little blurb back then. It was, you had, I needed more information.

And then to me, Tinder just seemed like all the other apps. So, and when I was scrolling through Tinder, I would see the same people that were on the other apps. And I just, I just didn’t like Tinder’s interface really.

But I do like getting to choose a song. I don’t know what song I would choose. Isn’t it? It’s a lot of pressure.

Yeah. That is a lot of pressure. I’d probably maybe do something like, I love, um, 60s.

I love Motown, doo-wop, and I love like the Beach Boys and that kind of stuff too. So maybe I’d do something old like that. Right.

I have no idea. Or maybe I’d do something from a musical just to get the right people. I know that would be really hard, really hard.

See, now you’re gonna have to think about it. Yeah. With, um, dating women, I would say I got probably half my, half my girlfriends from Tinder and then half from Her.

Have you heard of Her? No. Um, Her is, is for women. Um, and I’m going to say women with like an asterisk, um, because it’s all types of women, trans women, genderqueer folks as well.

And that was a, it felt like a really, like a little bit of a safer space. For sure. You would sometimes see profiles and then the people would be like, this is for me and my partner.

We’re looking for a third. And like, I haven’t learned what like the unicorn icon meant. What does it mean? Um, it’s for people they’re like looking for a third, but like someone just for like sexual encounters.

And I was like, okay, so anything with a unicorn, I knew that’s not for me. Um, but there’s like a whole new, like there’s this whole world out there of like, I think I, that was my first big firsthand introduction to like seeing people, um, that were polyamorous, um, open relationships. The amount of open relationships is kind of wild and just seeing that.

But yeah, I, her was great. It was a lot of, a lot of women. Some would, I would also maybe see on Tinder as well.

Um, but yeah, it was just a good, a good place to see, um, kind of like a more focused view of like what you were looking for. I like that. That’s nice.

I, um, I date men and generally CIS men, but I, I, I did switch to include non-binary at one point to just kind of see. Cause I’m not, I mean like there can be a lot of people who identify as non-binary that I would be attracted to and, and like, and so I added non-binary and I was really disappointed in what I saw and there, I only got with my filters on, I don’t know, hardly anybody. It was probably just that day and what my filters were showing me too.

Yeah. But after that I was like, eh, you know, I’m straight. I know a lot of my friends, I’m like, are you sure? It’s a good world out there.

Yeah. So I’m like, I’m open to it. Like if I, if I, if I meet a woman that I’m attracted to and like and want to date, sure.

But that just doesn’t happen. And I don’t like walk around looking at, see, I, well, I honestly, for me, I don’t, I don’t walk around and feel attracted because I think I’m more, what’s it called? When you’re like more attracted to personality. Oh, like a demisexual.

Yeah. Well, demisexual is like, you need to get to know somebody. I think that’s what my understanding was.

I don’t, I need to get to know some, I could, I can get to know somebody in an hour and feel attracted to them. Like, I don’t need a lot of time, but I just need to be attracted to their personality and their looks. But I can’t just like, I can look and be like, wow, that’s a good looking human.

Yeah. Man or woman or whatever. Yeah.

I can be like. You have nice features. That’s, you look good.

Yeah. But I won’t feel attraction. Yeah.

Until I see the kind of person they are. And that’s always just really been men. So I, but I, if that changes, it changes.

Yeah. Um, growing up, I had, I had a secret girlfriend in elementary school. Oh my gosh, that’s adorable.

Yeah. And I, looking back on it now, I feel really bad. It’s cause I was embarrassed.

Well, it’s hard. I mean, it was the nineties. Yeah.

But, um, no, I’ve always liked, I would say boys and girls. Now that sounds weird. Cause I’m a grown woman.

So I would say like men and women, but yeah. Um, I’ve had partners before that I think on their dating profiles, they most said, um, like female. Um, but I had a girlfriend and she wanted to be called girlfriend, but, um, that was non-binary, um, would wear a Packer.

Have you heard of that? Um, it’s like a prosthetic, I would say penis. Oh yeah. Okay.

And you wear like throughout your day to give an impression of a bulge and would wear a binder and things like that to just look and feel a little bit more masculine. So that, I mean, that was a fine experience ended up not being a great relationship for me, but yeah, it’s, I like, I liked being able to learn and experience how people feel. I’m just, I’m fascinated by, I could talk about like gender forever, um, and the cultural values and variations and all sorts of things, but it’s really cool getting to see how people, especially a lot of people I know, or I, a lot of people that I dated, I think maybe I was attracted to also didn’t have the greatest home lives or, or childhood.

So to see adults kind of come to terms with who they are, embrace who they are and figure out how to express that. Um, and a lot of that is like with changing gender or even just presentation of who you are and expressing your values or your needs was really cool. Cause you get to see like, okay, this person that I’m dating and that I like, and I really respect, um, is finally getting a, finally being able to, to, to express themselves and the way they wanted to.

I love seeing that too. Yeah. It makes me really, it’s, it’s like heartwarming and sweet to see people and it’s like a confidence that comes out.

Yeah. Like a homecoming. Yeah.

They’re, they’re more at home and it’s, it’s beautiful really. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you want to tell a little bit about this elementary school secret girlfriend? Cause that’s so cute. What was that like? What did, what happened? Um, we, well, we were friends of course. And then, um, this was in, well, it would have been either fourth or fifth grade because I had the same teacher for fourth and fifth grade.

So it would have been one of those. I actually have, I’m going to see if I can find the picture when I get home and I’ll show you. Um, we had this like dressed up trunk, um, that my teacher had.

And there’s a picture. Um, I think it’s the only picture I have of her by the way. Um, but we’re in like the dress up trunk with a couple other kids and just like have like wacky costumes on.

But, um, yeah, we were friends and we would hang out. I mean, honestly, I kissed a lot of my elementary school friends. I would say that stopped in middle school.

I wasn’t smooching my middle school friends. Sorry guys. Um, but yeah, we would hang out all the time.

Obviously we’re best friends and then, um, we liked each other. So then we were girlfriends, but, um, especially I think her mom, especially would not have been okay with it. And a smaller town, you know, you have to keep things kind of under wraps.

So yeah, we were just secret girlfriends. So we would just make out. We would smooch.

Yeah. Tongues. Whoa.

That’s in fifth, fifth or fourth grade. Yeah, that’s a little. I know.

I wonder now. I’m like, is that appropriate? Probably not. But yeah, I think my first French kiss, I was like 17.

I was a late bloomer. I was so shy and I was so insecure. You mentioned that after solely dating men, you switched, you were like, okay, did you just like switch to women or did you like open it up to both? Or what, what did you do after that? When you were kind of like, okay, no, I actually do want to date women again.

I would say I kind of opened it up to starting to date women again. And then it just became a phase out. Um, it just, I feel like it’s just more natural for me in a relationship.

Not to say that there aren’t men out there who are evolved and, um, you know, on the same pathway as I am about who people are and what rights they should have. But it was truly harder to find. Um, and it seemed like a lot of the people that I went on multiple dates with, there was going to be a lot of work to do in helping them grow.

And again, coming out of a marriage where I had to help people find a therapist, go to therapy, do your follow-up, check in. Hey, did you do your therapy homework? I didn’t want to have to then go through this with someone else. Like, Hey, are you going to spend time like reading about other cultures and becoming a more empathetic person? Like, that’s not, I don’t have time for that.

Um, I teach high schoolers, like I already have to help them sometimes navigate being like a kind human to others. Um, I don’t want that in my relationship either. And I didn’t have to do that much lifting dating women.

And you know, there are conservative women. I, there were a couple conservative women on the dating apps, which I thought was interesting. I never matched with them or even attempted, but looking back on it, I wish you did it for the right.

I just kind of want to know how you can reconcile those. Um, that’s really interesting to me. So there were a couple, but for the most part, it’s just people are already there, right? We’ve already, especially with queer people.

There’s there’s judgment in the queer community for sure, but it just doesn’t seem to be as prevalent as, as with just dating straight men. So it’s a lot less work for me. Yeah.

I see that. Learning to kind of like know when to, when to dive in and when to just let it go for my own, for my own emotional safety and my own, my own emotional, um, protection, I guess, and energy. Yeah.

That is, that is something that I have been trying to balance and work on, not just around values, but around emotional labor in general. Yeah. Like take you like you’re talking about, you know, raising a, an adult human in your marriage.

And sometimes when you’re, when you’re getting to know people, when you’re dating people, you have such different lives and you’re coming together that some of that is hard to parse out whether that’s actually what’s going on. Are you like having to teach and raise this person or are you getting to demonstrate and live your life and show your values in a way that is, that people are, are learning and growing alongside of you rather than, rather than you being responsible for their learning and their growth? That active wanting to be part of it is like the big, big deal. I think for me, um, yeah, my ex wife, when we were dating, so this was back in the early two thousands, but we had multiple arguments because she was convinced that bisexuality wasn’t real.

And like, I had to tell her, I’m like, that’s so invalidating to who I am as a person. It’s not real for you. Like, it’s not your story.

It’s not your experience, but it’s mine, you know? And so just having to defend yourself, I’m more likely to speak up for others than I am for myself. How about your quick little story of your meeting your fiance? You said you met your fiance on Hinge. Um, I, I paid for whenever I got a new app or download an app, I usually paid for it for like a month or something.

Yes, I did too. Yeah. Hinge, I paid for it for a while because I like being able to have more filters.

That’s what you pay. When you pay for it, you, you can actually filter, um, politics and smoking. Oh, I think you can’t pay for those.

And those are two deal breakers for me. Oh yeah. So you, it’s just, you don’t have to weed through as many people if you can have more filters set.

I like that. Um, I always did just, I don’t know, by the time I was dating to be in a relationship, I’m like, it’s even $30. I was like, it’s $30.

I’m spending how much time looking at profiles. Like it’s an investment on getting a more quality experience, I think. So, um, but yeah, like she was the only person I matched with on Hinge and we had our first date at the Tacoma comedy club.

If you go like doors open like an hour beforehand, you can get drinks, food, whatever. The thing I remember the most is we just had a really great conversation to the point where like you’ve met, you went on a lot of first dates. Sometimes it’s so hard to like think of like, wait, what am I going to ask next? I never had to stop and think about what to ask next.

Like we wanted to just add on to what each other were saying. It just like flowed really well to the point when like the lights went down and the show was starting. I was actually kind of bummed.

I was like, Oh no, I wish we had done like a dinner instead because now we have to stop talking. And I’m, I, I get like, I’m fine being forward on a date. Like I will, like, I like, I like like a hand on an arm or hand on a leg and stuff.

But I remember being so nervous that I just like let my leg touch hers. And so I didn’t know if she even was like, I don’t know. I thought we had a great conversation, but she likes to play very cool.

So when we left the date, I was like, can I kiss you? And she said yes. And well, and then we ended up kind of making out in front of the comedy club. Someone was, someone made a comment.

I was like, Oh, okay. That’s probably our cue to stop. But yeah, it was just a very sweet first date.

And then we went last November, we went to a comedy show at Tacoma Comedy Club. It’s one of our favorite things to do together. We’re always saying comedians, but we went to go see Melissa Villasenor.

I love her. She’s so funny. She was so, so good too.

That’s sad. Yeah, she was so good. And we had like a little date.

We went to, um, they have a pinball arcade in Tacoma. So we went there, we had a drink nearby first. And then we went to the comedy club and, um, she was like, do you remember our first date? And I was like, yeah, we were just meeting there.

And she was like, leaned up against the building. I remember that. And I turned back around and that’s when she like held up the ring, my engagement ring.

And I love that she proposed to you. Yes. Right outside.

Well, because I asked her for the first date and first kiss and I asked her to be my girlfriend. So I said, when you’re ready to get engaged, that’s on you. And so I actually had had a ring for a long time.

And, um, so when we got home from our date, I gave her her ring, but yeah. So we had our first date and then our engagement at the Tacoma Comedy Club. I love it.

I feel like Tacoma gets such a bad rep. I love Tacoma. Tacoma is beautiful.

I miss it. I love Tacoma. There’s so much to do there.

It’s so beautiful. Point Defiance Park is incredible. The waterfront is kind of makes me sad in some ways because like Ruston Point used to be like, it makes, it’s, it’s weird.

I don’t know. I have weird feelings about it. Okay.

I have to tell you about this book, but we don’t have to do this on the podcast. I read it. I know exactly what you’re saying.

Yes, Murderland. No one ever has read Murderland. I was like, I know why the vibes are weird because of the arsenic.

Yes. Well, I mean, because it used to be that, it used to be that smelter plant. And so I’m like, like, it just like makes me feel so weird about like this beautiful place on this like polluted, but like, is that good? Is that bad? I don’t know.

But then yeah, Murderland. So good. Yes.

I love that book. Wildly. Like it, it’s a, it has to take a certain like Venn diagram of nerdom.

Like you want to know about science and serial killers and the link between the two. And it’s just the perfect. It’s so funny.

I knew exactly the book because I know you and I knew exactly the book you were thinking. I’ve told so many people about that book and I just read it maybe a couple months ago. Yeah.

I read it right when it came out because I’d actually saw an article about it coming out and I was like, I am on that. Yes. Because I, I used to work in environmental stuff.

And so, yeah, yeah. It’s so funny. Oh man.

Yeah. So Tacoma, you know, yes, home to serial killers, but you know. I’m from Bellingham and Bellingham.

Home to serial killers. I was just watching a documentary about the Hillside Strangler. And they’re like in Bellingham, Washington.

I’m like, okay, cool. True Crime is always Washington and Utah. Yes.

The Morbid Girlies. I love the Morbid podcast for True Crime. They regularly like what’s going on in Bellingham.

They know it by name. They’ll mention it. And I’m like, that’s so wild that you’re like, they’re on the East coast and they’re like, Bellingham, Washington is known for.

Okay. Bellingham is beautiful. I love Bellingham.

Yeah. What, what about it equals murderous something? I don’t know. Um, pollution probably.

The BP. I hadn’t been to Bellingham in a long time and I just went up there in the winter. And it’s so beautiful.

Chuckanut Drive. Ugh. Yeah.

Washington State. Western Washington is gorgeous.

Ask Elisa is a podcast where we have listener questions.

And I didn’t prep you on the listener question. But I’m actually thinking it’s a good one for you. So it is, what’s your take on friends with benefits and how long should a relationship like a friends with benefits kind of last? Like, do you have opinions on that? That’s tough for me because I don’t know.

I know it’s not a queer thing because there are many queer women who are friends for a very long time and then realize, Oh, we actually love each other. Um, for me, I very much like if we’re friends, I just don’t have, I, I don’t have it. Um, like you are, you’re clinically like a good looking person.

Oh, thank you. Clinically. No one’s ever said that to me before.

But like, like just by a standard of looks, like you’re a good looking person, but it’s like, we’re friends. So I don’t think like I would ever. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, not to mention what, you know what I mean? So for me, I don’t think I ever could, but I have had friends do that. At some point, realistically, at least one person is going to want to have something a little bit more permanent, I imagine.

And I worry about ruining a friendship. So I don’t know. I just, I would caution my friends against it.

Um, but some of my friends, they’ve like been friends. They started a little friends with benefits and then they realized they love each other and it’s kind of perfect. So yeah, go for it.

But no, it might not work out. I also share your concern. I think that you should not hook up with your friends.

I think if it happens once, then you need to figure out, do we like each other? Or was that just a one-time thing? And if it is a one-time thing, you don’t let it happen again. And you move on. Because I feel like if you’re like, if you do, if you continue that relationship, it’ll either ruin the friendship.

It will never be the same again. Well, yeah. I did, I actually like, sometimes I forget, I forget about this because it was so long ago, but I did hook up with a friend once and we are still friends because it did not happen again.

It did not become an ongoing thing. And I remember at the time I was kind of like, oh, is this something? I don’t know. You know, like we always, it was kind of something where we always had a little crush on each other over the years.

And it was like, we got it out of our system and it was like, oh yeah, no. And we’re still friends now. And I think that that is fine.

But I think that if we had kept going, I probably would have caught feelings and then maybe not been, then also like, it would be weird. It could be weird moving forward with other relationships being like, oh, this is my friend that I used to hook up with. Like, even if you want to still be friends with each other and you know, it’s, you know, it’s not something, it can still cause tension in your, your other relationships because it’s, you’ve had, you know, ongoing intimate connections with somebody and who’s it’s, it might always linger and always be there.

So if it’s a one-time thing that might happen, but don’t, don’t let it be an ongoing thing. If you want casual, it’s so easy to get now through dating apps. If you want to meet someone to have a casual relationship with and you identify it as casual from the beginning, that can work.

I have had some casual relationships in the past couple of years of dating and I am not friends with any of them. Like actual friends, friends, like it ended and we do not keep in touch. Like maybe like one of them, I think we are, we follow each other on Instagram, but we do not talk.

And another one like was like, we’re still friendly and everything, but we’re not like active friends. Like we’re cool with each other and you know, maybe want to catch up every once in a while, but we’re not going to hang out. Yeah.

And also it was very few times. It wasn’t really like we have a casual relationship. It was just kind of like, eh, we’re friends and then yeah.

I think it would be a perfect storm of really great communication and security from everyone involved because thinking, yeah, in the future, I, I think, I don’t, I think this might be more of a queer thing than a straight thing, but I’m kind of a joke in the lesbian world is one of the things you disclose is if you’re still living with your ex. Yeah. And I, in theory, like you, like even my ex-wife, like we, I wanted to be friends afterward.

I actually, I was like, we should end this marriage so that we can still be friends. We’d been friends to each other before we dated. I didn’t want to lose the friendship part just because we weren’t good people for each other.

We don’t talk right now, but one of my, one of my ex-girlfriends, we were friends for a long time. There was no extras going on at that point. We’re just friends.

And so, um, my current fiance, like she’s very secure. She, um, you know, I talked about it. I was like, meet whoever.

Um, and you know, I think when you date people, like for a while, like that friendship still goes and then it kind of dwindles off. But a lot of my exes, like I’ve wanted to stay friends with them. Like they’re good people, you know? But it takes a good, secure partner to then be okay.

And to know like that I am being truthful. There isn’t anything, um, to meet that other person if they need and to see like, oh yeah, it’s very clear. You guys are just friends, you know? I think you can get a lot from energy.

So if it works for you and it works for your friends and you are ready to be prepared for insecurity, jealousy on a partner’s part in the future, go for it. I think that staying friends with an ex is different than friends with benefits though, right? It is, yeah. Because there was definition and there was an end.

And like friends with benefits is so, it’s like the physical attraction is, is what carries it as opposed to like choosing to be in a relationship with somebody and choosing to end that relationship. It’s like a friendship plus the sexual versus all of it in one. But I’m like you, I feel like if I, even maybe it’s like a friend of a friend or something like that.

If you’re attracted to them, I feel like I personally would eventually get feelings, right? Like you have a friendship, which is the basis of any good relationship, whether it’s romantic or not. And then if you have good sexual chemistry on top of that, assuming it takes communication to discuss boundaries and stuff, you have good communication. Yeah.

When I first got on the apps after my breakup in 2024, um, I matched with somebody who, who basically said they were not emotionally available, that they were, that, that they were just, you know, wanting to have somebody to hang out with every once in a while and spend some time with. And I was like, cool, you seem like a nice guy. You seem attractive.

And so we, we would, would hang out literally like every two weeks, like not very often because he had a really busy parenting schedule. And I was very like, because that’s what he stated. I was like, he’s not looking for a relationship.

This is what this is. And so I never, I never asked to, we didn’t go out, we didn’t go out. We just hung out at my house and we talked and just like hung out.

Fooled around. You knew not to wish for more. I did not, I did not want more, but I did start to get feelings for him, but I just was like off the table and I didn’t ever say anything to him.

And then, and then after it’d been a few months of, of that, I was like, well, maybe I should tell him that I, that I am starting to have feelings for him. And so I asked if he wanted to meet for lunch one day. And so we met for lunch and he’s like, I met somebody.

And I was like, you do know that I like you, right? I’m like, I purposely, like, I took you at your word. And so like, sometimes though, like when people are saying, oh, I just want casual. Sometimes it’s like, they just want casual with you, which can be fine.

Like, but I was, I was disappointed. And then he, and he still kept in touch and stuff and was like, and even like complained to me about his new girlfriend at some point. And then eventually we just had to like, stop, like, we just stopped.

We never said, I never said like, Hey, don’t contact me anymore. It just naturally stopped. Right.

But I was disappointed. And I missed him after for a little while. And that, and I, after that, my, um, my way to get casual relationships was I’d go on a date with somebody.

And if we got along great and they seemed attractive. And, but I’m like, I’m open to a second date. Like, I don’t really know much about him.

Or maybe we go on a second date or something. And they say, I don’t think we’re a good match for our relationship. Then I, so they turn me down.

Yeah. Then I say, eh, what if, what if we just have a casual thing then? And a hundred percent of the time they say yes. Yeah.

Both of these are men. So yeah. Like one person once was like, I have to think about it.

And then like within like, it was over text over within like an hour, two minutes. No, like right away. He’s like, no, no.

Yeah. Let’s do this. Let’s do this.

Yeah. One of my, um, girlfriends, uh, I was looking on Tinder and I did go a little bit out of my age range. I, a couple of years younger than I typically do, but, um, I thought it was fine because they were like, I don’t want a relationship.

I am just like looking to date and, you know, et cetera. And I said, perfect. Also don’t want a relationship.

Um, and then we ended up in a relationship. So, but same thing I was like, and looking back, I’m like, okay, if someone says they’re not into X, Y, and Z, it was a good learning lesson for me. Right.

So like, don’t, don’t get too involved. Yeah. Like you have to believe people when they tell you, when somebody says they don’t want something, you have to believe them.

Yeah. That’s free for your own like wellbeing. Yeah.

Well, that’s what I thought I wanted too. But then I was like, but they’re kind of great. Yeah.

So, and we’re kind of good together. So it was the same thing. Everyone’s allowed to change their minds, but it’s still, it’s just, it’s, you know, relationships are hard.

People, people are complex. I think my big thing is I tried to learn something from every date and sometimes I didn’t. Or sometimes I just reaffirmed something I knew I didn’t want, but, um, it’s not a waste.

If you learn something about yourself for me, dating after a divorce was a good way to almost like a check. Do I really care about these things that I really thought that I did in my marriage that led to my divorce? Right. I didn’t want to be in my marriage because it was important to me that I was not with someone who needed a partner to help them just navigate life and dating people and seeing people that were independent people.

And then I was like, yes, this really affirms like, this is exactly what I want. So if you can make it a lesson, learn something about yourself or what you want in other people, it’s not a, it’s not a waste. Or enjoy getting to know that person too.

Like sometimes, sometimes just having coffee or a meal with an interesting person is a nice experience. You know, it got you out of the house. You got to, you know, just get a peek into someone else’s life and, and enjoy that for what it is.

And that’s one of the, one of the things that I’ve been kind of, um, noticing over all of this talk and discussion on dating and learning about dating and seeing how people date is, is if we stop focusing so much on outcomes in dating, like the, the journey, the journey, I hate saying that like my journey, but the ride will be a lot more smooth. Like you’ll just, you can weather the ups and downs a lot more if you’re not so like set on the outcomes because people are complex. Relationships are complex and they take time to develop.

And so you can’t, you can’t know what an outcome is going to be. No, so much as you want to and like to control things. Yeah.

This reminds me. Yeah. And so like people are like, Oh, I’m dating with intention.

Yeah. You can date with intention without being so dead set on the outcome because like, let’s, let’s make our intentions. Like my intention is to date you and get to know you at this time.

That’s my intention at this time. Like your intentions can, you can have many intentions along the way. Right.

So when it comes to friends with benefits, the person that sent this question in had been being friends with benefits with somebody for a year. Oh. And now the person is saying they love them and they are not interested in that person and they don’t love them.

And I’m like, okay, then break it off. And they’re like, but I’ll miss them. No, sorry.

Yeah. That’s not friends. For the other person.

If you’re a friend to that person and it’s. And they’re not your friend anymore. Probably after that.

Yeah. You lost a friend. That’s what happens.

So I think that friends with benefits shouldn’t even be a thing. Like I never, ever called my casual relationships, friends with benefits because I don’t, I believe that friendship is a benefit in itself. You don’t need to be like, we’re friends, but we don’t have, but there was no benefits.

Right. No, like I’m a friend that you can touch. Like that’s kind of, I don’t know.

I just, I don’t like the term friends with benefits. A touching friend. Yeah.

So I like the term sex buddies or casual relationship. You know, like that’s, that’s fine. So thank you so much for coming.

It’s been really nice to talk to you and thank you. Happy pride month. Happy pride.

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That’s true. Yeah. I’ll tell you that he looks like a man, just a regular white man.

A real man. Brown hair, brown eyes, and a beard. He always wears a hat.

The end. I can picture the sketch right now. Yep, that’s him.

Thank you for listening to Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick. I’m your host, Elisa Sparkman. This episode was produced by me and a guy I met on a dating app.

Audio engineering, editing, and music by Jacob Patterson.