Ask Elisa Podcast

PODCAST EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

It’s Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick, a podcast about dating in your late 30s, 40s, and older. I’m Elisa. I found myself unexpectedly single right before my 40th birthday.

And now, with two years of dating under my belt, let’s talk about it. Today, my guest is my friend Kelly. Hi, Kelly.

Hello. Kelly is who my family and friends call Boy Kelly because one of my best friend’s name is Kelly. Girl Kelly, but she’s been around much longer than Boy Kelly, so she just gets to be Kelly.

Yeah, no, she earned it. Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about just about yourself, Kelly? Basic intro, okay. I’m 44.

I’ve lived in the greater Seattle area for my entire life. I work for the state. I’ve got a dog.

I like scary movies. Yeah, I’m a little nerdy. Just a little bit.

Or a lot, maybe. I don’t know. When it comes to dating, I firmly believe that if you choose to date, it should be part of your life and not your whole life.

So before we talk about dating, let’s take a few minutes to share something about ourselves or our lives that’s exciting, that we’re proud of, happy about. It can be, you know, just a fun fact or something about you that is not at all related to any romantic relationships because we are so much more than our love lives. Okay.

You already, I mean you already kind of said some. A little bit, yeah, I guess an exciting, well, kind of exciting thing. I’ve beaten diabetes here in the last couple of years, which is exciting.

Getting my health on track. Yeah. What else have I accomplished? I mean, just one thing is fine.

That’s so great that you, that’s really cool that you beat diabetes. I know you had some issues with your eyes. I was, yeah.

And that’s been so much better? Pain, a lot better, yeah. I still occasionally have a little funky eye issue, but it’s, it’s it’s more me, not the, not the blood sugar. So, yeah.

Yeah. Kelly and I are scary movie buddies. And so when we go see a scary movie, it’s like, I’m always like, Sour Patch Kids! And he’s like, oh! Why are you getting the best candy? And then I’m like, okay, I will allow you to share.

How many can I, how many can you have? Yeah, good, good rationing. Yeah. I controlled the Sour Patch Kids as best I could.

So yeah, and it’s, since I’ve known you, it’s really, you’ve really come a long way with the diabetes. That’s really cool. Congratulations.

Thank you. So I will share, since you brought up movies and scary movies, I went to film school. That’s something I haven’t shared on the podcast yet.

I went to a film school film program that was just a one-year film production program where you kind of learned all the different aspects of filmmaking. And it is something that I still feel really passionate about. Like I love film and television so much.

But I also found that film school made me less of a snob about film and TV. Like I can appreciate, I can appreciate things a lot more, like the work that went into it. And I can kind of appreciate things for what they are.

Like I can definitely be critical. Like I like to be critical about them. But at the same time, I’m kind of like, this is just a fun thing.

And I’m going to just appreciate it for being a fun thing instead of having to like pick it apart. Yeah. So I thought, you think, you think that maybe film school would have done the opposite to me? Like made me more of a film snob, which I still am kind of a film snob.

But at the same time, I feel like I, I might say like, oh, that’s not really like what I would qualify as a good movie, but I still think it’s fun and still enjoy it. Like that kind of thing. Yeah.

My, my, my dear mother imparted upon me a deep love of bad movies from an early age. So even when I took a film class in college, it, it only kind of reinforced my love of those things because I could, I could really appreciate the more artistic films, but also be like, OK, but just entertainment wise, this stupid movie about the world ending because, you know, a hubcap fell off on the freeway is incredible. So, you know, uh, so yeah.

And appreciating like the work that it went into it and the thought that went into it. So over the course of using the dating apps in the past two years, I have made a few friends through matching on dating apps and you are one of those friends. Yeah.

So I think it was October, it was October-ish or September, maybe September. I think it was, no, I think it was like August because you had just had your birthday, your 40th birthday, I think. Yeah.

So I was really, I was pretty new into dating at that point. And it was August. And that, that sounds about right.

Yeah. We met, was it Hinge or Bumble? Do you remember? Oh, uh. I think it was Hinge.

I think it was Hinge, but I saw you on both of them, which was funny. Like after, after we’d, we’d been talking and we’ve met and I, I was still kind of scrolling through the apps. I, I would occasionally come across yours again and be like, Hey, it’s Elisa.

So yeah, I, I like saw your profile and I don’t remember who liked whose profile first, but I saw your profile and like right away I was like, that’s a friend. Yeah. I really like, I like clocked you as a friend right away.

And, um, and I thought, you know, like not really, cause I thought like not really my romantic type, but who knows. Sure. But I could tell like you were my kind of person.

Yeah. So, um, and when we matched when I, I’ll tell you what totally sold me when we were talking about like, Oh, have you been using the dating apps long? And that kind of chatting. And you, uh, you said that you had been using the dating apps and, and like putting yourself out there and trying, and then you put in like, um, parentheses or something.

Arrested development narrator. He wasn’t. Yes.

It was like the way you did it was absolutely perfect. It wasn’t like, it, it was just like the way to my heart because I’m a big fan of, especially the early, the first three seasons of arrested development. Yeah.

No, I was, I was using the dating apps as a kind of, uh, more of a, uh, just a tool to convince myself that I was trying. So yeah, it was, it was exactly as that, that message kind of outlined. Like I was, I was on there, I was swiping, I was talking to people, but I wasn’t really trying.

I was just kind of doing it to satisfy my own need to be like, yes, I’m out there making the effort. And I have seen that in quite a few men. Um, I think that’s something that people do for sure.

And it’s funny you say that you kind of clocked me as a friend, cause I think I did have something on there that just said, Hey, if you just want to be buddies and hang out, we could totally do that too. I think, I know I had that on my profile at some point and, but I don’t remember anything that was written in your profile, honestly, but I do remember chatting with you and really enjoying it. And we had, we scheduled the first date.

I had my first mammogram. That’s how I remember our date cause I turned 40 and so I had to have a mammogram and I’m like already like treating you as a friend. I’m like, well, let’s just meet at like five or something at this restaurant, but I’m coming right after my first mammogram.

So I’m going to be in like sweats and stuff because you’re not supposed to wear metal and that kind of thing. And so you’re like, okay. Yeah.

And then we had a good, really great chat. And I think I didn’t really, I didn’t come out saying like, I just want to be friends like right away because I was like, you never know. Right.

Um, and it was a really good first date. And then I didn’t want to tell you that your face, like, I just want to be friends. Cause that’s hard to do, especially because I can do it more now, um, because I’ve more practice, but then I hadn’t, you know, I’d only been dating for like two or three months at that point.

Yeah. So I wasn’t used to like communicating those things. So I was always doing it like afterwards through text and you were like right away.

Yes. And I feel like I got from you such authenticity in that where so many other men where I’m like, oh, I want to be friends with you. They’re like, yeah, but you could tell it’s kind of like, oh, I guess I’m, you know, I’m kind of like getting the consolation prize or whatever.

And I did not feel that from you at all for one second and felt like legit friends. And what I, what I noticed about you in our first date is that you have amazing friendships in your life. I do.

Yeah. I have some really good friendships. And that is such a green flag.

And that made me think like, oh, he’s a friend that shows up for people and like a really good friend. And so I was really happy that we met. Yeah.

Me too. No. Yeah.

Our first date was our only date, I guess it was wonderful. And I had a lot of fun and we talked about a lot of interesting things, our jobs and movies and stuff. But yeah, I remember just kind of afterward, I was really excited because it was the first date I’d had in years, like years and years over half a decade.

And I, but when it was over, I was like, I’m really getting the friendship vibe. And I, and you were really cool. And I was like, I kind of want to keep this person, but I don’t think we’re like, I wasn’t feeling the sparks.

So I was like, I don’t know if I texted you or you texted me, but one of us was like, hey, let’s, let’s be, let’s be homies. Cause. And we actually did.

So I think a lot of times when you say let’s be friends, you actually kind of don’t really follow through with that. But we, we actually, we hung out quite a bit. Like we went, we would always go see scary movies together.

Of course. Every time a new scary movie came out, we would go see it. And that was kind of selfishly what I want.

I was like, I was like, I need a scary movie friend. Cause I do have a lot of really good friends, but they all hate scary movies. So I was like, I need a local friend that likes movies.

They’re freaky. So we saw The Substance together. That was, that was a good one to see together.

Yeah. And that, I mean, that movie is kind of like a very much acquired taste, I think. And yeah, I feel like you either love or hate it.

And we both loved it. We did. Yeah.

I’m not always one for the body horror, but that one I really loved. It can be a lot. Yeah.

I’m more, I’m more like, I like the psychological stuff. I like the satire around it or like, you know, there was satire in it. So anyway, this is not a podcast about movies, which it could be with you and me.

Yeah. We actually like kept in touch. We haven’t gone to see a movie together in a long time.

And I think it’s because you got a girlfriend. I yeah. Very selfish of me.

I apologize. I know. Well, you got a boyfriend too.

So, hey. But you got a girlfriend way before I got a boyfriend. That’s true.

That’s true. No. Yeah.

I, uh, it, it, it all happened by accident, really. I was, I wasn’t looking very hard. So after, so after that first date.

Sure. And you said like a decade. Like half a decade.

Okay. For like, I think it was, what, what year was that? It was that. 2024.

2024. I had not been on a date. Oh, okay.

Yeah. I had not been on a date since 2017. Oh, wow.

Yeah. So what, what was your dating history really like over those years? Sparse. Really sparse? I’m a weirdo.

Yeah. I, I don’t talk about my dating very much because, because people just get so, it’s like, well, what was, what was wrong with you or what was, what was wrong with everybody else? What was, what was, uh, and no, I just, I didn’t date much. In my twenties, I was more interested in just hanging out and the occasional, not even hookups, but just, you know, spending time with someone for a little while.

And then, but, but I would always get really uncomfortable and, and it was never like a, like an ending things kind of situation. It was just the kind of a, oh, I’m uncomfortable now. I need to move myself away.

I, I, I worry it was maybe a bit toxic, uh, at the time, but I had good intentions. I hope I didn’t hurt anybody too much. I, I just wasn’t interested in dating.

And I was also had a lot of like, kind of hangups from the ancient family trauma kind of stuff that, that really made it hard for me. So, uh, over the course of, from like high school through 2017, I think I had maybe three girlfriends and only one of them actually defined it as, as a relationship and the other two were just really short things. Um, yeah, no, I had a really weird kind of non-dating history, um, until like the apps showed up and I started kind of trying, yes, air quote, trying, um, and, uh, started to actually talk to people with some kind of intention.

Yeah. And how did, how did people around you talk to you about or view your like romantic life or dating life? Did people, um, give you a hard time? Um, not usually that, I mean, I didn’t bring it up much, but the people that I did tell about it were usually close friends and they were just like, oh, that makes sense. Or, uh, I, my, uh, my buddy’s wife, uh, her name’s Sam.

She, uh, he met her on, uh, Tinder and she was delightful and I asked if we could keep her and he’s like, yeah, maybe. And then I was the best man at their wedding, but she, she was, her reactions was really funny over the years. She was always like, so you seeing anybody? So yeah, she was, she was just wanted me to be happy and she was so sweet about it that it wasn’t obnoxious or anything.

But, uh, she set me up on a blind date one time and it went poorly and, uh, but she’s always kind of a little, you know, just kind of elbowing me a little bit, but she was the, probably the most interested person in my entire life about it. Yeah. Everyone else just kind of left it alone.

What about your, your sister? My sister, I don’t know. She wasn’t, wasn’t too worried about it either. I think she knew me well enough that, that she knew that if I was going to meet somebody, it would be the right thing.

And if I didn’t, then I was probably happy because I’m a, I’m a loner. I, I’m really happy on my own and, um, I, I do well by myself a lot of the time. So I’m not that, uh, desperate to have company though.

I do eventually get there, but yeah. Um, can you remind me what year your mom passed away? Uh, she passed away in 2012. Okay.

So that was kind of, you would have been about 30? I was 31. Okay. Yeah.

How did she kind of view your romantic life? I, cause I’m, you know, normally you want, like parents are the ones that maybe are a little bit more pushy or judgy or interested. And so I, uh, from my mom with my single brother, she’s always like, I just want him to find someone. I just want some.

And I’m like, and I’d be single and I’d be like, what about me? And she’s like, Hey, you’re fine. It was like, it was like the boys needed that more than the girls or something. Maybe.

I don’t know. Uh, boys often don’t get a good healthy, um, idea of, of what relationships are until much later in life, which is bad. A lot of women don’t.

That’s probably true. Yeah, it is different. Yeah.

Um, my mom was, I don’t know, she, she’s a, she was an interesting character. And she, she, I credit her with the fact that I turned out as well as I did because, uh, I certainly wasn’t getting a good impression of what relationships were like from my father or what a good healthy relationship should be like, uh, from him. Um, she, she’s the one I kind of inherited that, that trauma I mentioned from, uh, she, she didn’t do anything terrible to me, but she, she had a lot of terrible things happen to her when she was younger.

And I won’t get into that, but, uh, it was, relationships were really hard for her. And, um, I kind of took that on myself as well. Yeah, generational trauma is a real thing.

Yeah. And, but she, I don’t know, I don’t honestly remember her bugging me too much about meeting people because she was, she was sort of my confidant person back in the day. She, I would, I would just tell her everything.

I’d stop home and have breakfast with her and we’d, we’d, uh, chat about everything. And if I was sad, I’d give her a call. You know, she, I was, I was, I’m not ashamed of it.

I was a mama’s boy and that’s good. I think that’s, we, we shame people for that. And I think that’s stupid.

Being a mama’s boy is great as long as it’s not like the arrested development mama’s boy. Um, mother, mother, uh, mother. Yeah.

Mother boy, mother boy. Oh boy. Uh, yeah, no, it wasn’t like that.

Thank goodness. You didn’t have like song and dance routines with your mom? No. Holy God.

That would have been hilarious. I don’t think she was limber enough to dance. Uh, she, she was a funny little old bag lady.

She would walk around with a big cart with lots of bags in it and then a cute flowery hat and, uh, everybody loved her. There were hundreds of people at her funeral and just so many nice people saying so many wonderful things. Yeah.

Uh, I forgotten what the question was. Yeah. Oh, I was just wondering what, what your mom’s view was.

Oh yeah. In your relationship life. Yeah, no, yeah.

She was pretty much accepting and not really like pushy in any way. No, she, she, if she did ask about it, it’s because I brought it up, I think. Yeah.

How good of her. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about, um, how things, how things started with your current girlfriend and.

Yeah. Um, I met her on Hinge as well. It was kind of a weird period on the apps because I had actually, you know, you swipe a lot and get no responses from people or no matches.

And all of a sudden in this like two or three week period, I had like five or six matches and we were all chatting with each other. And she turned out to be one of them. Of those five or six matches, two, two people, her and one other woman that I was chatting with, uh, both kind of turned out to be like, Oh, we might actually meet.

Uh, my girlfriend’s name is Katie. Uh, Katie had on her profile that she just didn’t really like chatting in the digital space. And she’d much rather just meet in person.

I said very quickly, I don’t know why or where this boldness came from, but I was just like, Hey, you didn’t want to, you want to meet? And she said, yeah, let’s do it. She’s actually moved here from Hawaii and was doing the farmsteading thing all over the state. And so we went to Mopop and, uh, the museum of pop culture.

I always forget it’s called Mopop. Yeah. I was like, I was picturing like some kind of like ice cream shop or something.

Like every time people say Mopop, I think it sounds delicious. It does sound delicious. You’re right.

No, they should serve ice cream there. Maybe they do. I don’t know.

But yeah, no, we, uh, and we clicked really well. She, uh, but it kind of started a bit like you’re on my date where she, you know, by the end of that date, she’s like, Hey, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of more looking for a friend. I was like, okay.

And I was actually really bummed because I remember you telling me about that. And I was thinking like, Oh no, I do. Yeah.

I did text you tonight. No, it was well, okay. I was, I was okay with it.

I wasn’t going to make her feel bad or like we couldn’t be friends, but I was already feeling after that first date. And I was like, Holy crap. This person is like just so easy to talk to and, and I was really attracted to her.

And she seemed wonderful. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, we can, we can be friends.

That’s okay. And I meant it, but I was also feeling like, Oh, bummer. You know, I was like, I was really thought maybe something was going to start there.

But, um, but then we did end up hanging out again. Actually the next day, I think she invited me to spend, to hang out the next weekend. And I was like, Oh, okay.

Yeah. Let’s do that. We went on.

It’s so funny too. We argue about when we actually started dating a lot because, because of that period of, Oh yeah, no, we were just hanging out. But then, uh, we kind of fell into just being a couple by accident, uh, eventually down the road a few months.

Um, but, uh, then I had my shoulder surgery, which, uh, you know, at that point I was like, Oh, I might not see her again. But then the thing that really sold me on her shoulder surgery or you were, um, before you were like coupley. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember. I remember that.

Yeah. Yeah. We’d gone on three non dates at that point.

Um, and, but the day after my surgery, she drove down to where I was living with my sister at the time. She drove down to my sister’s house to hang out with me and bring me some, uh, prepared meals that she had fixed for me. And she gave me this cute little rock that she had bought.

Cause she thought she said it reminded me of her and, or she reminded me. Yeah. Yes.

Um, and I was just, I was completely doped up on, uh, painkillers and she was sitting there with me on the porch and my arm was in pain and I was just like, Oh, I, I adore this woman. I remember you telling me she came to see you and hang out with you cause that was really early on. Like you said, you’d only been on three, uh, hangouts.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, wow, she, I thought, wow, she must really like him like to do that.

We were really sweet. Yeah. We, I mean, we already just really liked each other just as people and we became really close friends really quickly.

We, I think there is, hasn’t been a day since that first date that we haven’t chatted at least through text. Um, cause she does live a little kind of far away. It’s, it is a little bit of a long distance relationship, but, um, yeah.

And it’s, and it’s so weird because my whole life, I, like I said, I haven’t dated much and this one just kind of came out of nowhere. And this is officially easily the longest relationship I’ve ever been in. We just hit like a year, um, pretty recently.

So, yeah. You’re like the opposite of me. I’ve only had long-term relationships.

And so, um, my boyfriend and I have been together for seven months and I’m like, I keep calling him my new boyfriend still. And I had asked someone like, when do you stop saying new boyfriend? And they’re like, I don’t know, like six months maybe. And I’m like, no, he’s still my new boyfriend cause I’m used to being people for like years.

Seven months doesn’t feel that long to me. No, I’m sure it doesn’t. Maybe to, maybe only when I, I guess when I introduce him to new people who didn’t know I had a boyfriend.

So that makes sense. But I, I think that your story with Katie is so, it’s so great because it shows what people want. I think in, when they talk about a slow burn relationship, like that’s such a, like kind of a buzz term for relationships right now where people say they want a slow burn, where you, where you actually build, build something and you’re not just like, you know, fireworks right away.

And I, it’s just, you had in the past year, you’ve really built foundation. It’s beautiful. I’m so happy for you.

Thank you. Um, I, I have one other guy friend that I met on the, through the apps that I still, I don’t, we’re not really like active friends like you and I are. Um, and he moved out of the state and he listens to this podcast and is a supporter.

Thank you. Um, but he, he had somebody that he had, um, like always liked, they always had like a thing and they never really, they never really had the chance to make it work. And he wanted to move out of Washington and she lived in Georgia.

And so he was like, I think I’m just going to move to Georgia because she’s single. I’m single and we’re just gonna give it a go. And then one day I, he lives by the, he used to live by the airport.

So I would always park my car at his place and he’d drive into the airport whenever I would fly somewhere. Um, bummer that he moved, but I called him one day or texted him like, Hey, I’m gonna, can I still park my car at your place this week? And he’s like, oh yeah, I’m just about to head back from Georgia. By the way, I got married yesterday.

So that’s the opposite of a slow burn. I mean, maybe slow burn because they’d known each other a long time and always like, just never, but they just like went for it hardcore. Well, good for them.

And yeah, I mean, I was just like, there’s so many different ways that I’ve like through this experience of meeting people at this, at our age, um, at, and I think he was the same age as you 40. He’s probably 45 now. Um, I’ve just, I’ve been able to witness people in their late thirties and forties do romance and relationships differently.

And it’s been really cool. Yeah. That’s awesome.

I wasn’t sure where that was going. I was like, oh my God, you’re married. Yeah.

I was, I was so surprised. I’m like, I got married yesterday. I’m like, uh, wow.

Okay. Yeah. That’s exciting.

Yeah. I want to ask you about your experience. So what I have on this podcast so much is you’re the first guy, you’re the first guy on my podcast.

I think you might be the only one brave enough because I tend to not speak so greatly about men. Well, we’ve got, we’ve got it coming. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s nice to hear.

We do. What kind of things do you see or did you see on the apps? I mean, you were kind of on the apps for a long time as a, as a looky Lou. What are the things that you saw over and over again in women’s profiles that start that maybe at first didn’t phase you, but then just, you started to roll your eyes at or things that became cliche or, um, just like so common that you were like, come on, stop being such basic bees.

Oh, wow. Um, if I’m going to allow anyone to trash women on this podcast, it’s you. No, I’m not going to trash anybody.

I can’t. I, I, my mother would roll over in her grave. Um, but I think the only thing that I really noticed because talking to you and other women about online dating, it is such a different experience for men.

We, we don’t get the insanity. We don’t have the crazy, absolutely nutter butters people on there like, you know, saying, oh, if you’re not this kind of woman, then I’m not going to be with you. You know, we didn’t have, I don’t have, I never saw any open head wounds, um, which you did share with me when it happened.

And we’re both still trying. I asked you permission to send. You did, you did.

Do you consent to this photo of a bloody head wound that I saw on a dating program? Oh my God. Yeah. No, I never saw anything like that.

Women are way less insane on the dating apps. And I think the only thing that I saw, which kind of annoyed me a little bit, but not in a, was, was women with children would often say the exact same things. Like I have a 10 year old son and he’s my entire world.

I saw that so many times. And that was, you know, that’s, that’s great. It’s, it’s good to actually set that boundary probably.

And just saying, Hey, I have a child and they’re really important to me. And if you try to come between us, then no. And I, and I, you know, the more I thought about it, I was like, oh, they probably need to put that on there.

But I saw it so many times that I was like, oh, um, I want to say that men do that too. Do they too? And in the, um, in the burn, the haystack dating method, which I’ve talked about several times on this show, if they’ve developed a, uh, or Jenny Young, who, who is the PhD rhetoric. I can never remember what it’s called.

The expert in rhetoric studies rhetoric. Okay. So she has a rhetorician.

Yeah. Something like that. Okay.

Rhetorist. No, sure. Rhetorician is, uh, she, so she’s basically analyzed all these men’s dating profiles really.

And it’s to help women basically kind of catch the subtext better there. I don’t remember what the rhetorical pattern is around basically stating that your kid is the most important thing to you, but it’s basically like that should be a given and you don’t need to say it. Like saying you have a child is enough, like putting that you have kids is enough.

And if you are an adult and a good parent, like you don’t need to say, you don’t need to say that your child is the most important thing to you. And you’re saying maybe women need to put that because men are often babies. And I saw like, they, they want a lot of times, you know, they’re, they’re not used to not being the one who centered.

I saw a TikTok recently where a woman was talking about how she was getting a necklace with her son’s initial on it. And her husband was like, do you want my initial on it too? And she was like, no, like, so that’s kind of an example of maybe like, and then also there’s like jealousy sometimes when kids are born. So maybe, maybe women do need to put it on there because their experience has been, why are you putting, you know, like you are not giving me enough attention from men.

So maybe, but I can see how that that’s annoying though. It just, I just, yeah. And it wasn’t that I found anything wrong with it.

I just saw it so many times on so many profiles that I was kind of rolling my eyes each time. I was like, okay, I get it. But yeah, no, that makes sense that, that women would have to maybe set that boundary for men that just don’t get it.

Yeah. I really don’t think that they need to put it in their profile though. I was really hoping you would have some more to dish about this.

Like you can say, don’t be, don’t be scared to say one thing. So when I post on TikTok about like men’s horrible dating profiles, you know, men will be like, but women do this too. Women do that too.

And like, and one person was like, yeah, women always put looking for my last first kiss. I definitely saw some of that. Yeah, no, the corny stuff was, I always found it really amusing.

And I don’t know, I, I was trying to think of like the equivalent of the, the fish photo for women that, and I couldn’t come up with any, it honestly, it’s been a while since I’ve been on the app too, like a year. So yeah, it was, I mean, I didn’t delete it right away when Katie and I started hanging out because she, you know, established that she wanted to be friends first. But I, I, I really couldn’t think of any.

Oh, you know what it was? The, the definitely was the gun photos was… Gun? Gun, yeah. When they’d have a photo of themselves with like an AR-15 or a rifle or something. It was always the AR-15s.

I don’t know what that is. This is shocking to me. I know.

And I thought, I thought that the, like the political filters would get rid of a lot of that, but it, it still showed up a lot. I’m shocked. Women holding like AR-15s? Yeah.

And I don’t know if they, they were just into guns a lot or if they, they felt like they needed to put that on there to attract men that were into guns or something. I don’t know. But I saw a lot of it and every time I kind of got like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t love this.

If this is how you’re portraying yourself on the app, I don’t know if, if we’re going to jive. So. What’s interesting here is the audio engineer man is nodding, nodding his head along about like, yeah, the gun photos.

I had no idea. Yeah. It’s, it’s weird.

I don’t know. I didn’t know I was being such a cliche when I put my, my gun photos on there. Did you have gun photos? No.

I don’t remember gun photos. I hate guns. Yeah.

I don’t either. Worst I ever had was I bought a Nerf gun recently to scare away some woodpeckers that have been plaguing my apartment. That’s the worst of it.

Oh my gosh. So what about during the chatting phase? Were there things that came up during the chatting phase that were cliche or common? Or what was your experience like? Did you get ghosted a lot? Like what happened? Well, how was that for you? There was a little bit of ghosting. I didn’t, again, match with a whole lot of people.

But I think you often were like, I got a match. I got two matches. And I’m like, I got like four matches a day, bro.

Yeah, no. It was, yeah. Very, very contrasted experiences.

But I think the thing that really irked the hell out of me was, was when I would match with someone and they just start answering with like one word responses. And then they’d be like, well, why, why aren’t you still talking with me? I was like, you’re not saying anything. You gotta, I don’t know, like, give me something.

Ask me a question too, you know, that happened a lot. Yeah, that happens a lot. I think with men too.

Yeah, everybody just does that. And it’s like, come on, engage. I wonder if it has to do with, so for me, I would go through phases where I wouldn’t be, would not be very, I wouldn’t be as like open to participating.

And I would just be like, I want them to do all the work. Or I would just be more, less likely to be open for some, like I would just, my openness to people would kind of ebb and flow. And it wasn’t always reflective of the, it was often not really reflective of the person.

For example, I went out with somebody and had a really great first date. And then we went on a second date where we went for a walk and we were walking, walking. And he was finally said, you know, I, I’m pretty sure I matched with you before.

Because he’s like, I remember this specific thing about you. And I like wrapped my brain and I’m like, what app was it on? When was it? And I could not remember chatting with him at all. And I really liked him.

He was spending a lot of time on the East Coast. And so we would, I’m like, okay, well, you’re going to be gone all summer. And I felt like this was last year.

I felt like, okay, well, I can’t really just like wait for this person. Like we’ve only gone on two dates. I can’t wait a whole, you know, like six weeks.

And so I ended up not really keeping in touch and dated someone else for a while. And then in the fall, I reached back out to him saying like, Hey, are you back in town? Are you done? You want to like pick things up? And he was like, yeah. And he ended up, we were about to hang out again, like go on another, like we’ve been basically seeing each other for just maybe a couple of weeks after we got back in touch.

And I always felt like he was a little bit unavailable. Not like, I mean, he was, he was very emotionally intelligent, but I felt like there was some closed offness. And part of the reason why I wanted to see him again is because he had experienced his father passing away and I had just lost my best friend.

And I just wanted somebody to hang out with. And I didn’t want to go back on the app. So that’s really why I reached out to him.

And I also had really liked him. I was getting ready to go, go to his place. And he texted me and told me he reconnected with his ex-girlfriend.

I was like, and he’s like, I didn’t really think we were going anywhere anyway. And I’m like, Oh, bummer. But I don’t remember, like I was in whatever place I was in when I first matched with him, whenever that was some, I just could, I, I was in a place where I wasn’t really being proactive.

I wasn’t really feeling connected to anybody. I was, I was really letting the other person do the heavy lifting. And it was just kind of what, how things would go.

Was that, and you said that was during kind of like when you lost your friend? No, cause I, it had been. That was before she passed? Well, when we, we, because she died in the summer. And so we matched in like May.

Oh, okay. And, and then he was gone for the summer. And so when I reached back out to him, I, and he was like, Oh, how have you been? And I told him that my friend died and he was, he, you know, he just handled it great.

And it was like, so he was just, yeah. So it was before and after, but I thought his close-off-ness had to do with him recently losing his father. And, and I think it was partially, but.

Grief. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I know I was, I mean, I wasn’t dating anyways, but when my mom passed, there was no way I was dating. There was, there was, I had no energy for it. I was, the grief was bad for a long time and there was, I didn’t have anything to give other people at that point.

I was a mess. I was kind of a monster to some people here and there. I did things that I’m not proud of in that period.

You know, things that when I remember them, I literally just like, ugh. And like, like, huh? I said, like what? You don’t have to share. I was.

If you don’t want to share on the podcast, that’s fine. Nothing, nothing, like nothing unforgivable. Did you beat somebody up, Kelly? No, just really unkind to people when, you know, I was, I was, I’ve never been a substance abuser, but a few times I did get really drunk and really high and just was unkind to people.

And looking back on that time, yeah, there was, there was no way I was dating. And I don’t know, I know, I know my grief was kind of particularly intense. Other people maybe don’t go through it the same as me, but.

Yeah. I mean, everyone processes it so differently. Yeah.

But even, even just a little bit of grief can really kind of make it hard to, to show up. Well, what a lot of people who maybe haven’t lost somebody close to them might not know is how, how there’s compounding grief. Like when you, when somebody that you’re super close to dies, there, there’s so much, there’s so many other losses with that, that you don’t really realize until it happens.

And so you have to process all these other losses with it and, and they pop up over and over like new things, new, new losses, especially, uh, hasn’t even been a year since my friend died yet. And new, new things pop up that, that just like get throw me out of commission for a day or two because I didn’t really, that like that particular piece of the grief or the loss hadn’t even hit me or I hadn’t realized they’re just, so there are new pieces for that will pop up forever, honestly. Yeah.

Yeah. No, the compounding is bad. And actually my, my father who is still alive, but he decided he didn’t want to be, uh, our father anymore, my sister and I. So he, about a year after my mom died, he’s got remarried and moved away and he’s, he’s been, so I kind of lost him too.

Um, not that he was the best father, but it was still, uh, going on and I, and I lost a really good friend, uh, also still alive, but we had a really big falling out during that period. So yeah, there’s just a lot of things that, that, that happened in there. And, but yeah, also just, you don’t realize what you’ve lost all the time where, where you have that person in your life and grieving them.

And you’re like, oh no, I also lost my connection to all these other people because they were my kind of line through or any multitude of things that you’ve lost. And that makes dating hard. Yeah.

I didn’t want to have to tell strange men. Oh yeah. That are like, here’s a pretty lady.

I’m going to go on a date with her. She seems nice. I don’t want to like, have to tell them, but then people are like, you don’t have to tell them.

I’m like, yeah, but I also don’t want to lie or not tell, like, I feel like if they’re, they’re going to ask me, especially cause like, so she died in July and it was like, it was early, early October that I was like thinking I wanted to date again or end of September. And I’m like, I just don’t want to, I don’t want, what do you, what’s the like main talking point in September? How was your summer? I just, I did not like, there’s no, there was no way that what you did over the summer was going to, wasn’t going to come up. And so I’m like, I just don’t want to be asked that question, especially by strange men, no matter how much they seem great.

So that’s part of the reason why I reached back out to that person who I had gone on a few dates with. Cause there was, we both liked each other just fine. And, um, so I think he was really set on it being casual.

And I, I think I was also kind of giving casual vibes, um, which is fine. Cause I wasn’t like, I wasn’t particularly like thinking let’s be in a, you know, we went on three dates in May and June. Let’s, let’s become boyfriend.

You know, I’m just kind of like, let’s just pick things up where we left off. But I really did like him. So I was kind of like, also kind of like, and I liked him, you know, so that he seems like a good option.

And I’m actually really glad that, that he said, yeah, of course. And we just went on a couple more dates in early October until he said he reconnected with his ex-girlfriend. So then after that, then I downloaded Hinge again.

I kind of went on two first dates just to kind of rip the Band-Aid off with people who I was kind of feeling like meh about, like they seem nice and like people who I would probably be friends with, you know, or like, I didn’t really feel like they seemed low stakes. I know that might be mean, but like, it just, you know, I, I, I was so nervous about having to have this interaction with all of the grief and everything that I just tried to. And also I feel like just between like June and October, there was just, the apps were, the people on the apps seemed way worse.

Like I, I hardly felt, found any profiles that I felt like I wanted to match with. Like a bad season. Yeah.

It was like, suddenly it got really, really dire. And like, there were way more, like way more fish photos, way more gun photos, way more bathroom selfies. And like more of that, like directive language.

That’s like, you know, oh, like one of the things I saw on a profile once was like, if you’re one of those females who has male friends, kindly F off. Like so many red flags in one sentence. So, um, and honestly, that’s what I, um, gave a, gave a guy a chance who had a profile that looked very low effort.

And that’s my boyfriend now, because it was so like, I was like, well, it doesn’t hurt to chat with this person. Like, it’s not like a red flag profile, but it’s not really a green flag profile either. It’s just meh.

And I was like, it’s the, it’s the least worst one I got. I want to chat with somebody. And I’m so glad I, I’m so glad I did.

Yeah. It sounds like you were, you were kind of easing yourself in and that’s great. Yeah.

Yeah. And he mentioned his dad dying before I even could mention my friend dying. So I was like, all right.

It is helpful having someone around that, that understands your grief. Yeah. Yeah.

Just, just because people that haven’t lost someone close, uh, just can’t, they can sympathize, they can empathize. They can’t understand it. Yeah.

And I had never, other than like grandparents and I had one uncle kind of pass away unexpectedly, um, in his early forties. Other than that, like I really hadn’t lost anybody close to me and this was just like a huge shock. So I’m still feeling quite hung up on this whole women posting photos with guns.

I like it. I didn’t know. I really didn’t know.

Yeah. I mean, it’s not, it’s not like an enormous amount, but just more than I expected. Yeah.

I wouldn’t expect very many at all. Yeah. Do you also see a lot of, um, photos that you’re obviously filters? Yes.

Those. Ooh, yes. Actually.

Good, good call. That’s what I would know. That’s the one thing that I would think would be common.

Yeah. Or also accounts. So either the filters, the egregious filters or the accounts that had no picture at all, like they would have like a nice nature shot or a picture of their cat or something.

And I’m like, I, I appreciate you’re maybe uncomfortable, but I gotta, I gotta know. I gotta attraction is a part of this. It’s not, it’s not like a, it’s not the whole thing, but it is a part of it.

And I need to know that I’m at least superficially attracted to you to even start this. Cause like, if, if, if, if we don’t have that in common, it’s not going to go anywhere. And that’s, that’s hard on all sides.

You know, everybody feels that, you know, I really liked this person. They weren’t attracted to me. Yeah.

For me, it’s like, I have to have, it’s, it’s not so much that I have to, I can’t really, I don’t feel attraction based on looks alone, but I, you know, I can like the look of you, like, you know what I mean? Like just, I have to see that I like the look of you there. Cause I, there are looks that I’m absolutely unattracted to that. I know I would never be, could never be attracted to.

So it’s time for the listener question. Ooh. Okay.

Yeah. So this is actually from a TikTok follower. This question is from a woman who, who has been out of the dating scene for a while.

And she says, I want to start dating again, but I’m scared of rejection. And she also said she’s scared people will be mean, but I really, I want to feel, that’s kind of a hard fear to, to like work with, but that kind of fear, I would suggest talking to a counselor about, because I don’t really know how to handle like a fear of someone being mean to you, but for the fear of rejection, what are some ways to overcome that fear? This is the perfect question for me because I had such a fear of rejection for so long. That was a part of a big part of the no dating thing.

Cause there would be someone I’d have a crush on and I would just sit there for months and years and say nothing. And obviously nothing happened. So that, I think that is a good starting point.

There’s a lot of things you can do to get over that fear, like alcohol. I did that once, which is not, I don’t recommend highly recommended option, but I did one time I was like, I’m going to ask this girl out and I was feeling really nervous about it. And so I just had a few drinks and then I managed to send her some messages and she actually said no, but I was like, I was like, okay, but the drinks are helping because I did it.

And I always felt really proud of myself. And she and I are still friends. Actually, we have Pi Day all the time.

On Pi Day? On Pi Day. You can’t have Pi Day all the time. All the time every year.

Okay. Constant Pi Day. Yeah.

Just the way to start with fear of rejection is reminding yourself, okay, I can be rejected and nothing can happen or I can do nothing and nothing is definitely going to happen. There is no possible way to make something happen without action. So I think that it’s okay.

I don’t know the age of the person that asked this question, but like me, I’m in the first long-term relationship of my life and I’m 44. So it doesn’t have to happen at any point. It doesn’t have to, you don’t have to feel pressure like, oh, my time is slipping away.

You don’t have to say, if you’re not feeling it, then you’re not feeling it. But if you really feel like you really want to meet someone, that it’s going to enrich your life, that it’s something you want, then look in the mirror and say, hey, you deserve this and you can do this. And if you don’t at least try, then it won’t happen.

And I don’t have a good way to, I don’t have a good mantra for that because, again, I struggled with it for so long. Just a persistent fear of, not necessarily the rejection, but a lot of the times I would, you know, grow a crush on a friend maybe or someone I knew casually that I didn’t want to make it awkward. I had this horror in my mind where if I said anything, then, oh, God, we can’t talk anymore.

If they see me in public or if we see each other at a social function, then it’s going to be awkward forever. And actually, that never happened. Like, the few times I did brave up and talk to somebody and then we saw each other afterwards, like with my friend that I got drunk for, drunk to text, you know, she and I are still really good friends.

We don’t see each other a ton, but it’s, yeah, every Pi Day, but it’s not like a, it’s not like a, oh, God, they asked me out that one time and they like me. You know, it’s, that’s kind of like a high schooler mentality that I think I carried with me through a great deal of my adult life, which is unfortunate. So when I was in college, I had, there was a friend of mine who is actually the friend that’s the horror movie editor.

Oh, yeah, yeah, you told me about this guy. So we, I remember we were, we were in the, in the editing lab together, the video editing lab. And I was kind of like a little bit of a mentor because he was a couple years younger than me.

I remember telling him like, oh, I have this crush on this guy. And I’m like, I’m scared to ask him out. And this, this guy says, why? Like, there’s nothing wrong with you.

Like, you’re not a bad person to have like you. And even if he’s not interested, it’s not going to be like, ew gross. Like it’s, there’s nothing wrong with you.

Yeah. And if they, if they’re not interested, it’s, it’s doesn’t mean anything about you. And that like changed my perspective to the point where I, I like, so I asked that person out and it was like February 12th or something.

Okay. And when he, I left a message of voicemail asking him out on his voicemail and he responded on a voicemail to me. Cause I missed his call saying yes.

And then he suggested that we go out on Valentine’s day. So not only did he say yes, which, you know, and I was in my early twenties too. So like it was, I had a date on Valentine’s day.

We went to a really nice restaurant. I still remember the food I got. It was the first time I ordered like a tuna steak and it was like pink inside.

And I was like, I’m going to be a grownup and eat this, this like semi raw fish. And it was delicious. And I’ve been a fan of like tuna steaks ever since.

But I, that’s why I remember the food so well. Cause it was like super fancy, you know? So the tuna was like really not really well cooked. Yeah.

It was perfect the way it’s supposed to be. So basically after that, after I got that advice from probably like a 19 year old, and I was like 21, I just wasn’t afraid. And so I would ask people out and I remember I was in a class with one of my roommates the next year.

It was a sociology class, like sociology of relationships. It was, I was super into it, obviously, considering that this is what I have a podcast about even back then. And the professor asked, when it comes to like dating, who asks who out first? And my roommate goes, Elisa, in front of the whole class.

Nice. I’m like, heck yeah. Hell yeah.

No shame in my game. Good for you. See, okay.

That’s, that’s your advice is if you, if you work up the nerve to ask people out and to go for it, then you will be that hell yeah person in someone’s life. Yeah. Um, I have, there’s another thing that you can do if that fear is really debilitating.

This is something I did not make this up. This is a real thing. So you can look it up and see how to do it is rejection therapy, where you go around and ask things that you are likely to get said no about that are not like dating, you know, so when you go to a restaurant, ask for something for free, you know, like ask, or if you’re sitting next to somebody in public, ask if you can use their chapstick or something weird that they’re likely to say no to.

And, and just like get used to hearing no. So I, that’s, those are just some, some ways to do it. Um, asking for free stuff.

And also like you might get some free stuff. Yeah. Or weird chapstick you don’t actually want to use.

No, you can just say, nevermind. If they give you your chapstick, say actually nevermind and give it back. You don’t actually have to follow through.

Just pretend. Or just say, oh, I’m allergic to this kind, but thank you so much. Or just say, oh yeah, actually, I remember I do have some, sorry.

Or just throw it back at them and run away. I don’t know. But just do it.

Get used to hearing no in other situations to help you like kind of, um, get used to it. That’s smart. That I, and I learned that through a lot of the dating and relationship books and podcasts I’ve been listening to, um, to, you know, to help me become good about learning all this stuff and talking about it.

So there are probably, I think there are like guides to rejection therapy online and ways that you can do it. So that would be my advice. If it’s, if you are struggling to change the mindset around it, um, practice, practice rejection therapy a bit and see how that feels.

But the mindset around dating, everybody’s looking for something so particular to them. And I was going to use a really big word. I was going to say idiosyncratic.

Ew, man, that’s perfect. So, um, something that’s just like so particular and so unique to them that you’re looking for, like, everybody’s looking for their very specific cup of tea and everybody is a specific cup of tea. And so when those specific cup of teas don’t match, I’ve been, I, I try and find all sorts of, um, analogies for this, but I think Danny in an earlier episode said, it’s like shopping at the Goodwill, you know, you find something and you’re like, this is nice.

Uh, and you like kind of look at it a little bit more and then you’re like, actually, no, it’s not for me. Yeah. You know, there’s going to be a lot of hit and miss a lot of misses just because you’re not somebody’s cup of tea.

Um, if, if you’re not somebody’s cup of tea, honestly, they’re not your cup of tea. Exactly. Yeah.

That’s the thing that I think a lot of men don’t think of is if, if she’s not into you, if she’s rejecting you, your advances, I mean, you should stop just out of pure respect, but also she’s not the one for you. You, there is someone else. So get over that.

Hang up, you know, move on and leave her alone. I firmly believe that there’s multiple people out there for you. So like if, if something, you’re not looking for one, one perfect fish in the sea.

Yeah. You’re not looking for one needle in the haystack. There are lots of needles in the haystack.

And, and take like risks too, because like on paper, I think if I were to look at your profile next to Katie’s profile, you and I make more sense just from our interests and the things that we’re into and the stuff we do on it. But, and then Katie and I, you know, she’s into, she’s more outdoorsy than me. She’s not very nerdy.

She’s, she’s a very practical person. But she, she on paper, it looks like you and I are the perfect match, but actually it was this, this one where our profiles are very different and it was just the, don’t assume that the one that, that’s, that seems to match you perfectly is going to be the right one. Right.

And Kelly, you’re way too nerdy for me. That’s fair. That’s fair.

I do. I do. A gut feeling, like you want to maybe give someone a chance, even if they don’t seem like what you logically have been telling yourself you want, like it doesn’t hurt to try.

It doesn’t hurt to, especially if you’re using the dating apps, it doesn’t hurt to match and chat and see, like, it’s not going to hurt you to exchange some messages with somebody for a day to see if you are, want to keep chatting with them and potentially meet in person. And even if you go on one date with somebody, it doesn’t mean, I think that we put a lot of, um, a lot of emphasis on an outcome. If you don’t put so much emphasis on the outcome, you’re going to just have way less anxiety about all of it.

Yeah. And I feel like this is something you told me at one point where, where, um, I, I had a lot of anxiety about just making the match. Cause I, you know, in my brain, my ridiculous brain, I had thought, you know, I knew it wasn’t true that, that if a match happened, then there was an expectation there.

But, but it, I let it stop me. I was like, oh, if I match with this person, then, then they’re going to think a certain way or they’re going to expect that I have, there’s a relationship already almost, right? But that makes no sense. Um, so it was really helpful.

I think, I think it was you that told me this, that just, you know, if you match, you can talk to them. And if it doesn’t work, then you just unmatch them. It’s, it’s not a, there is no obligation.

There is no, there probably not even any hurt feelings. There’s everybody’s doing it, right? Oh yeah. I think I remember this.

Yeah. Like everybody’s, everybody’s matching and unmatching all the time. Like it’s not a big deal.

Yeah. It’s not a big, it’s, and you, you build it up in your head and you make it a big deal, but it really isn’t. Yeah.

It can be so much easier than we build it up to be. Yeah. I’m so wise.

You are. What I, what I want to say too, for people who are scared of getting on the dating app, scared of rejection, scared of like, when you have, um, your dating profile, you are in control of your dating life. You have control.

You can say yes and no, however much you want to. And, and everybody is in control of their own, their own experience. So everybody is, and you can’t control other people’s decisions.

I think that some people get stressed out. Like you were about thinking that, you know, there’s all this meaning behind each connection and, and the meaning is, is this a connection? I want to continue, just continue in this moment. Like it’s all, it’s all passing, passing moments where you at any time, any person is allowed to say, um, like, thanks for your time, but I don’t, I don’t think I want to pursue this.

It can be like with that one guy that I don’t even remember, uh, unmatching. I think I even, the guy that I ended up matching with, and he said, I think we matched before he remembered me and I, I unmatched him without a word. Like I met, you know, you can ghost on matching, but it’s not the same thing as like ghosting in person, but like, yeah, I think that he wasn’t really, he also, what I noticed the second time that we matched the second time that we matched on a different app, he was very slow to respond.

And I just had more tolerance for that at the time. He was busy. I was busy.

So I was allowed, he would, he would respond literally in the evenings once a day. And I think maybe at that time when I matched with him before the slow response to me, I was like, Nope. Bye.

Unmatch. And so I think that, you know, when somebody is, is not interested, there are so many factors around where they are in their life, what’s going on with them and what they want in the moment and how they’re feeling that, you know, whether you are interested in somebody also has to do with timing and where they’re at, um, emotionally, mentally. And so it’s, it’s just so not about you.

It’s really, and no one, no one. And if somebody is really mean, that’s just sad for them. Yeah.

Yeah. And like, that’s not your, that’s not on you. Yeah.

Someone’s mean to you. That is, that’s, that’s them showing you that they are awful and that you are going to be so much better without them in your life. Yeah.

Kelly, have you ever had anybody be mean to you via the dating app? Not a single one. No. Okay.

I did have one person. I, I actually, I’ve had, I’ve had very few experiences. I had one person after a first date, send me some mean texts, texts, and it was wild and entertaining.

Oh, that’s good. And so I screenshot it and sent it to my friends and we were all like, whoa, this is nuts. And I kept joking because he called me a walking red flag.

And so I’m like, here I go. I was a walking red flag, you know, just, yeah. So also I had one person through when we matched, um, when I didn’t want to give him my phone number, he was like, you must be really bad at your job in communications because you don’t want to communicate with me.

Like, that’s a mean thing to say, but I’m just like, That’s such a petty thing to say. I know. It’s so funny.

It’s so, and I’m like, that’s the meanest, those, so those are the examples of the meanest things that have happened to me in, um, a year and a half on the dating apps. Okay. That’s, that’s pretty, not too bad.

That’s good. No one, you know, being on Tik TOK, uh, I get mean comments. So maybe I’ve had a little bit of therapy of, of exposure therapy in that.

Um, I recently had somebody on a live say, you’re not very good. You’re not very attractive, but you seem really nice. Oh, and then the other people, thanks bro.

And the other people in the comments were like, what the hell? And they were like defending me. And I was like, thanks guys. But I really don’t care.

I really don’t care. Oh my God. And I think that what, what women do experience is negging.

Yeah. So it is true. Like that’s, that is a tactic that shitty men use to manipulate women and wear them down and assert their dominance.

And so negging is basically this practice of, of putting a person down. And it’s almost like this, this, um, playground mentality of like, Oh, he’s picking on you because he likes you and guys like leaning into that and thinking that that’s what they’re going to do. And so they might be mean to you in that way, but it’s, that is a manipulative tactic.

And if somebody is mean to you, you have the power to be like, get out of my life. Especially on dating apps, you can unmatch them. You can set up parameters where you like, for, I like, I don’t give somebody my phone number until we go on a first date.

Until at the first date, when I decide I like you and I want to see you again, that’s the only time I give a phone number out. And I make sure that, that way I don’t have them in my phone. They don’t have my phone number.

And you know, you can just say, be done with that and forget they ever existed. Yeah. And it is, it is playground behavior.

Like you said, it’s, and if it hasn’t stayed on the playground and it’s still happening, and this, this adult person is, is negging you and trying to make you feel bad about yourself so that you try, so that you feel like you want to earn their approval. That is, that is such, talk about a red flag. Yeah.

Yeah. Get out of that. And the scary thing about that is it can happen at the flip of a switch where they have been being really sweet and over, like, usually they’ll, they might be love bombing you first and then they slowly start dropping the negging in.

So they, sometimes like manipulative people will try to pull you in. And then once, then they start these types of behaviors to build control around you and also to make you think you’re crazy, to confuse you. And so that’s why being in therapy is so important too.

Yeah. And learning about, learning about manipulative behaviors so that you can spot them early on and trusting your gut. I feel like trusting your gut and listening to your gut when it tells you something’s is so important in dating.

If your gut tells, you know, listen, listen to your gut. Yeah. You’re never going to regret listening to your gut.

Never. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been really fun.

It has been fun. You, I might need to have you come back. Okay.

Yeah, we can do that. You’re allowed to represent men on my podcast. Sweet.

I’m glad. Yeah. Happy to be that voice.

If you like the show, you can support us by giving a five-star rating and leaving a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick. I’m your host, Elisa Sparkman.

This episode was produced by me and a guy I met on a dating app. Audio engineering, editing, and music by Jacob Patterson.