Ask Elisa Podcast

TRANSCRIPT OF PODCAST EPISODE

Welcome to Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick, a podcast about dating in your late 30s, 40s, and older. I’m Elisa, and I found myself unexpectedly single right before my 40th birthday. And now with two years of dating under my belt, let’s talk about it.

So today I have my guest Rachael, and when it comes to dating, I firmly believe that if you choose to date, it should be part of your life and not your whole life. So let’s just take a few minutes to share something about ourselves and our lives that’s exciting or interesting or just something that’s new or that we’re happy about that has nothing to do with dating or romantic relationships because there’s so much more to us than our love lives. And as somebody who is doing a dating podcast and talking about dating all the time, I just want to make it clear that I believe that we are so much more than our love lives.

So my guest today is Rachael. Rachael, what’s something about you that you want to share that is nothing related to any romantic relationships? I really actually, something you probably don’t know about me is I love writing. I didn’t know that about you.

Yeah, and I’ve been doing a lot more of that lately. I have a blog. You have a blog? Yeah, I’ve had it since 2015 actually.

Wow. Yeah, we just kind of, we, you can post it later, but it’s, it’s just kind of a, it’s a way for me to kind of work through, I mean, gosh, this is kind of goofy, but I’m gonna just be honest, like just work through trauma recovery and eating disorder recovery. That’s amazing.

Rachael’s blog: This Vulnerable Life

Yeah, and so I’ve been really into that lately and writing more. Well, did you know that I also write? What? I actually really like screenwriting. So I am going to share, you did know that, right? Yeah.

Because I’m always like, I’m writing a movie, but then I don’t write it. I write like a little bit of it and then I change it aside. I want to write a different movie.

So I’ve never completed a movie, but I still enjoy writing and thinking about it and dreaming about it. That’s awesome. So yeah, I’ve taken some screenwriting classes through the Sundance collab and I like, yeah, I like writing too.

That’s something we have in common. I didn’t know. So we are talking about dating today, dating specifically after a big breakup, because so many of us in our late thirties, forties and older end up on the dating scene after a significant breakup.

So first, why don’t you tell us a little about who you are and then how you found yourself single again in your mid to late thirties? Yeah. My name is Rachael and I have worked in the nonprofit sector my whole life in the Seattle area, mostly in housing. And I ended up single.

Gosh, you know, we were talking earlier and you’re like 31. And I’m like, well, now the more that I think about it, I was like probably like 33 or 34. Cause it’s been about seven years, eight years since I’ve been, I almost got married.

Yeah. Yeah. I met you and you were engaged and I ran into you at a craft store and you were like, I’m getting stuff for my wedding.

And I was like, that’s great. And then I saw you like maybe a month or two later, I think it was maybe in September. And I was like, how was your wedding? And you were like, oh, it didn’t happen.

Sure. Didn’t tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.

So two weeks before we, uh, we’re going to get married. He started being wishy-washy about our relationship and he started telling me about this girl that he was having lunch with at work who I didn’t know about. And then it spiraled that next two weeks.

And by the end of, you know, that first week I was like, I can’t be with somebody who is not certain about me and doesn’t really truly want to be here. And we’d been going, I mean, we’ve been together for about five years and we kind of played this game a little bit early on of, you know, in, out, in, out. And then he’s like, I can’t live without you.

You know, and then I, I fell for it. Right. Cause I, I really wanted to get married and I really wanted to have kids.

And, and so I fell for it. And then two weeks before I was like, there was no effing way. I can’t be with somebody anymore who doesn’t truly want to be here.

So what was the process like to actually cancel such a big event? That’s so public. It just, I think that’s really brave of you to do that. A lot of people would have, would have just like, a lot of women would have probably just, well, gone with it.

Yeah. Well, we actually, you know, we went through this process of looking for marriage or therapists in that one, in like that two weeks we were looking for therapists. We realized like you, you know, when you get your marriage certificate, you have about 30 days to actually turn it in for it to be, you know, real.

So, you know, we went through all of that for that week of like, should we do this? Should we shouldn’t do this? And then, you know, at the end I was like, nope, we’re not doing it. So, you know, what was your question? The process for canceling it. Oh yeah.

It was a small wedding. Yeah. It was pretty small.

So, you know, we, our ceremony was just going to be a few friends and family. And after that, we were going to have a party for a lot of people like friends. And so it was pretty easy to tell our family, you know, even though they, my family had come up from California, it was easy to tell them, you know, we weren’t following through with it.

And then our friends, we just canceled that and then quietly canceled like all these other things in the background. And it wasn’t actually until a few months later that, you know, that public part really hit. What was that like? Oh, it was, it was kind of, I don’t wanna say it was awful, but you, I had people like coming up from, I don’t wanna say like the grave, but they’re coming up, you know, social media is such a crazy thing because everything is so public on there.

So I had people coming up who I hadn’t talked to in a long time because they wanted to know the drama. They wanted to know the drama. They wanted, they were like playing my friend.

Some of them took me out to coffee. And then finally I was like, I’m done with that. So I ended up like not canceling Facebook, but just shutting it down.

And my whole, now what I do on Facebook is less public because of that. Cause it’s like nobody’s truly. Yeah.

I have a similar experience. Um, in my early thirties, I got divorced and the divorce was fine and amicable, relatively amicable. And I was so happy, but the worst thing was dealing with everybody else who had their thoughts, judgments about what divorce should be like.

And I, I hated that. I, that it makes me never want to get married again because I don’t ever want some, but I don’t like how invested people get in your relationship. Once you go through this marriage process, right.

It feels gross to me. Yeah. Like mind your own business, everybody.

Absolutely. Your business is your business. My business is my business.

And if you know, we’re close, then you know about it, but it’s truly, you know, go watch housewives or something. If you want, if you want the drama, you want the drama and other people’s relationships. I do think it’s kind of fun, but at the same time, it’s like, it’s, it’s people’s real lives.

Yeah. And, and people act like they, they feel like they’re entitled to the information or like they know what’s going on. And then there’s a whole new level of it when you start to date again.

Cause I remember I started to date pretty quickly after my divorce. Cause I had like emotionally detached myself from my ex-husband pretty early on. And I was ready to start dating.

And you know, so many people are like, well, shouldn’t you take time to work on yourself? And shouldn’t you like, don’t you need time to process things and all this? And I’m just like, it’s my decision. I know myself, you don’t know my inner workings and you know, if it’s a mistake, it’s my mistake. So leave me alone.

Yeah. So what kind of, what kind of things did you face when you started dating? How long did you wait to date first of all? And then how, what did you face? Gosh, probably truly date. It’s July to January.

So like six months. Yeah. About six months.

But I, I had, um, connected with somebody who I was friends with before. And then we, um, started to hang out. So that kind of, you know, and we didn’t, we weren’t in a relationship.

It was a situation ship. It was, I think, I feel like it, it was because I know about it cause I’m your friend. Yeah.

It was agreed upon that it was temporary, casual and, and you both were benefiting. So I don’t feel like it wasn’t really a situation ship because the situation ship in my mind is something that’s undefined and people aren’t having their needs met. And you had a very defined relationship.

I mean, at times maybe it didn’t seem perfectly defined, but you both knew what the end result was going to be. Yeah, we did. That’s very true.

Yeah. But it made it easier for me to date because we weren’t in anything committed. So I was able to date and I didn’t feel like it was rushed or I could take my time.

Yeah. So you weren’t really lonely because you had this, this person to be with. So it made you maybe less, um, desperate maybe for connection or less interested in connection.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, at some point, a few years after that, I ended up moving out on my own, actually not even a few years, I think probably another three months or so. I moved out on my own, uh, cause I was living with my mom temporarily.

And then I moved in with my friend temporarily and she was struggling cause she had two kids and, um, she was having a hard time sleeping. So she wanted this bedroom back that I had been staying in with her. And I ended up moving out and, you know, you talk about lonely.

I think there’s alone versus lonely. And I really had to like, kind of grapple with those two things and really work through that because all of a sudden you lose your best friend, your home, your relationship, and then you are alone. Even if you’re in a really, even if you have, you know, a relationship with somebody else, you’re definitely, it’s just very different.

And so, you know, alone versus lonely is very different as well. Yeah, I see that. Yeah.

So when you did start to date, did you get judgment from people or interest in like, did people come out to kind of listen to your dating stories or did you feel supported or unsupported? I don’t know if I really talked about it that much. We talked about it. We talked about it.

Another thing that came out, that came out of your ending your, um, engagement is that that’s kind of how we became good friends because you used to garden with your ex’s grandma, right? Yeah. And I was like, I have gardens and I could use help. And you were like, I want to garden.

And so we just started gardening together. Yes, that’s exactly what happened. And that’s how we became friends.

Yeah. That’s like the most wholesome thing I’ve ever heard in the world. We are so cute.

We are pretty cute. Do you want to stay and help me in the garden after this? Just kidding. I’m not prepared today, but I definitely will come back.

They’ve been neglected. So maybe, maybe, yeah, we should set up some gardening dates again. Yeah.

So in terms of, um, afterward, you know, dating and feedback, I mean, I think I was just sharing my stories and dating is just became so monotonous and cause you’re just, it’s just so, I don’t want to say it’s boring, but after a while you’re just telling the same story over and over again. Right. And how did people, how did, so you date men, right? How did men react to your kind of like bombastic ending to the last relationship? Did you share that? I think early on I did, but then afterwards I didn’t.

Cause it kind of got further and further removed from your story. Yeah. Because also it’s like, I don’t, I also was trying not to come in with a lot of drama or a lot of like.

Yeah. Cause they don’t want drama. They say that on their profile.

No drama. They say that a lot. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at profiles.

They’re still saying they don’t want any drama. They don’t want any drama. No, no drama.

Just the, the ones that say no drama are usually the ones that are like all about the trauma. Most drama. Yeah.

Or they’re the ones who just want you to shut up and don’t want to hear about your day. Yeah. Dating is so exhausting.

That’s what it came down to. Yeah. It became really tiring.

And like for me, when I got out of my last relationship and started dating again, right before I turned 40, um, I had been with my former partner for almost eight years and we didn’t get married. Um, so after my divorce, I met him and we were together almost eight years. And when I would match with people on the dating app, the men would say like, Oh, how long since your last relationship? And when I would say, um, you know, the, the time when it was a relatively short time, like maybe four months, five months, six months.

Um, so many of them were like, I don’t think you’re ready to date. I’m not going to date somebody who’s that like recently out of a serious relationship. And one guy even said like, gave me his formula for how long it takes to get like his arbitrary formula that was like, if you’ve been with somebody it’s this many years, this many years equals this many months plus this or whatever bullshit that they came up with to decide whether somebody is ready to date or not after a big relationship.

And I was like, I can decide for myself when I’m ready to date. That’s not for you to decide, but I would just get unmatched pretty much quickly for those people who believe that there isn’t like, I couldn’t possibly be ready to date after this. I must be devastated.

I must not be ready. I must, whatever. And so those projections are really frustrating.

And I am like, well, of course, you probably are not the right person for me. Obviously, if you are thinking not trusting me right off the bat, like, I feel like, like trust people when they tell you what they’re feeling and what they’re ready for. And so I just found it really frustrating to have those instances where people would decide for me that I’m not ready to date.

Yeah. That’s not okay because you, it’s your person. You get to decide what’s good for you and what’s not good for you.

And at the beginning of dating after these, so now it’s been about two years, I would get frustrated and annoyed and upset over these things. But after a while, I just like, I stopped caring about any initial, like, I don’t know these people. Like when you match with somebody on a dating app, they’re a stranger.

So I pretty much have been able to take my mindset and detach myself from these people just because we’ve matched on a dating app. I don’t owe you anything. You don’t know me.

I don’t know you. So it’s easier to just be like, okay, bye. Yeah.

I actually, you know, I, I think something similar happened with me because I, I had, I wouldn’t say standards, but you know, you have these level of things that you want. And sometimes I think I, I’m such a kind person that sometimes I would just give people chances and chances and chances. And finally, I was like, no, that’s not what I want.

Yeah. It’s one thing to like give people a chance for, for other types of relationships, but this is something very specific and it should be based on what you want and what you need. Yeah.

So when you first started dating, because you had, you had your kind of casual person to, to keep you company. Did you dive your dive right into dating or did you like dip your toes in when, when I first started dating after my divorce? So this was in my early thirties. I spent a lot of time just chatting with people and then being like, Oh, I’m not ready.

And like not going on a date for a long time. Um, but then this second time I became single after a long-term relationship, I just dove right in. Yeah.

I think that, um, I, I had so many trust issues after that because other things had happened where I was like, people aren’t what they say they are. And you, it’s not that you can’t trust people around you. Right.

But it’s like, you just don’t truly know people. And so I don’t think I was truly ready to actually date, even though I was dating for several years after that. Do you think if you would do it again, you wouldn’t date or having those kinds of likes experiences of, of meeting people and getting to know them dating in that capacity was still beneficial to you in your growth? I, I wouldn’t go back in time and change it.

I do believe that it was important for my growth. I learned a lot still. Yeah.

So I feel like there’s also this, when, when it comes to dating again, after a big breakup, people think you need to spend all this time healing before you can, but you can, before you get out there and start dating, but you can, you can heal and keep healing. Like I’m still healing. Well, you, you heal in relationships.

Yeah. You can heal. Yeah.

Well, regardless of what’s going on around you and who you’re connecting with. So you can, you can start to date. You don’t have to be fully healed.

Yeah. I do believe that in my, so one of the, I’ll say, you know, one of the benefits of that marriage I almost had was that I did a lot of personal healing with that person. And I was able to build confidence and I was able to build communication skills and build, you know, points of conflict.

So when you’re having conversations or when you’re in conflict, like being able to have conversations with your partner. So I was able to build a lot of those. And I think that you consistently are learning from your partner and yourself in those relationships.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And growing.

Even though things may not have been perfect in my past relationships, I did a lot of learning and growing from them. This Ask Elisa podcast, we take listener questions or questions from my TikTok followers. And we have one today that will answer together about first dates.

And the question is how do you balance small talk and depth on a first date? Do you have, do you have like kind of, you’ve been on, do you have any kind of idea for how many first dates you’ve been on? No. No? I mean, hundreds. It feels like hundreds.

Really? I mean, I don’t know. I actually, I could not tell you. I have been on 45 because I’m a weirdo who kept track.

Yes. I remember that year. That year.

It was like almost two years. Yeah. And yeah, 45 first dates.

So I kind of have first date protocol, I suppose. Yeah. Did you kind of develop certain small talk, certain depth that you would reveal on a first date? Not necessarily.

I mean, there are, there are questions I want answered right away. So you had questions for, for the person that you were going on a date with, but did you have kind of like an idea for what you would share? Not necessarily. I think it, every date is different.

And so your comfortability level with sharing is different depending on the date and the person. So what kind of things did you want to know by a first date? By a first date? I guess actually I ask a lot of questions before I even go on a date with somebody. I want to know if they’re living with their parents.

I want to know if they have a job. I want to know if they have a car. I want to know if they’ve ever been arrested.

Those are pretty good things to know before you’ve been on a date. Also, you know, here I am 40 and I’m still interested in having kids. But at the time before I was like, are you interested in having kids or not? You know? Yeah.

So those are our questions. I’m still laughing at your questions because, because it’s kind of sad that we have to ask those things and find those things out. Right? I had, I definitely went on a date with somebody and on the date I found out that he didn’t have a job and that he lived with his parents.

Yeah. And then, and then I later found out that he had a protection order against him from his ex-wife. Nice.

It was like all of those things. Yep. But you, yeah.

Yep. And guess what I did? I went out with him again. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, we give, we give people chances, right? You know? And then at some point we stop that. Right.

Yeah. Because we learn. Yeah, we do.

And people like the small talk. I don’t, I don’t really know how to do small talk. I’m a talker.

Me either. I open up, I’m like, I will tell a stranger a deep, dark secret, which I actually don’t have deep, dark secrets because I’m such a talker. So I, I’ll share so much on a first date if I feel comfortable.

I’ve had first dates where, where the guy is constantly talking and I can hardly get a word in and, or they are, they’re talking and asking me questions and then like, they keep talking and I don’t really get a chance to ask them questions. I had a date with somebody that I liked and, but afterwards he’s like, I thought you didn’t like me because you didn’t ask me a single question. And I’m like, because you didn’t shut up the entire time, dude.

Like I couldn’t get a word in. Like I would answer your questions and then you would start talking right away. Yeah.

So I, I feel like it is different for each date. I did, I did, um, stop opening up so much about my family, I think after a while, because I, my dad stuff was just so complicated that I just kind of was like, yeah, I have a dad and I have these, you know, it w it’s kind of a weird thing because, what about your parents? I have a dad. That is all.

That is all I will say. It’s funny because, because he’s like, where, where do they live? And I’m like everywhere because he’s passed away. But it just, I have a dad.

He is dead. At the end. Well, yeah.

Cause my, my dad was older and my, I have older brothers and sisters. And so it just became this like long thing of information. Yeah, you do have a complicated family story.

So I just kind of like stopped having that conversation right away just because I didn’t want, I guess, like, I just didn’t want to seem like I have so much baggage. Yeah. Cause I’ve done so much work and likes and therapy that I’m, I’m not the same person I used to be, but I’m also like, you know, we all have stuff in our lives that follow us.

Yeah. And because I love talking about relationships, I’m like, wait, tell me, wait, I want to know about your messed up dad or your, you know, I’m always asking questions and I want to know everything. And so a lot of times like, you know, we’ll talk about past relationships just, and usually in a first date you do it in a very surface level way.

But I am like, wait, it sounds like your ex-wife is a narcissist. And there’ll be like, uh, like they don’t, you know, like there’s a rule. Like you don’t talk bad about your exes because it makes you seem like, you know, and I’m like, it’s okay.

Tell me. And I like get them to open up and tell me. And then I’m like, okay, I’m not interested in you.

Bye. And then they’re probably like, uh, it seems like you were interested. I’m like, yeah, I was interested in your family dynamics and stuff because that intrigues me so much.

Yeah. The psychology behind people. Yeah.

I think it’s kind of funny. Um, because the more they talk about it, the more like, are you the narcissist? Yeah. Sometimes, yeah.

Sometimes I’m like, uh, or if they say, um, something. Oh yeah. I have had like talking bad about their, their ex-wife a little bit.

And then I found out that the, this guy’s teen daughters didn’t talk to him at all. And I’m like, yeah, I’m going to side with your wife and two teen daughters. So I’m going to just like trust them, even though I don’t know them.

Cause that’s, those are some red flags. It’s hard to know. I mean, my, um, partner, his ex is a horrible person.

And as I’ve gotten to know him, he is an amazing dad, but the kids will come over and be like, just start talking about things that their mom has said to them. That is not true. Yeah.

I mean, I’ve done, I think for sure I have dated guys whose exes are absolutely terrible. Like it’s hard to, it’s just hard to know everything about somebody, especially so quickly. Yeah.

Cause I’m not, cause when we first started, my partner and I first started dating, I was, I was like, I kept an open mind when, you know, people start talking about their exes. I’m not somebody who jumps to the conclusion of like, oh my God, they’re awful. And you’re right.

Cause I, you just don’t know, but she really is a horrible person. And we’ll end on that note. Well, what do we need to end on? Sometimes the exes are horrible.

That’s right. Sometimes they are. And you don’t know people and I don’t know, we started going a little bit deeper than just surface level.

Yeah. I think I kind of like diving in on a first date, but I think I could probably rein it back, honestly. So I don’t know, I, this listener’s question was how do you balance small talk and depth on a first date? And the answer for me is that I don’t, and that maybe I should try.

Well, I think, you know, you’re yourself and being yourself is really important on a first date. And I like to talk. That’s okay.

That’s why I’m starting a podcast. All right. Thanks so much for being on the show, Rachael.

We would love to have you again. Will you come back? I would love to come back. Great.

Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Ask Elisa, the good, the bad, and the ick. I’m your host, Alisa Sparkman.

This episode was produced by me and a guy I met on a dating app. Audio engineering, editing, and music by Jacob Patterson.